Magic

by Rattigan350 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • pale.emperor
    pale.emperor

    "magic refers to practices associated with the occult, or the supernatural. It can include curses and the casting or breaking of spells. It does not refer to tricks using quick hand movements, which some people perform merely for entertainment."

    I wish that quote was printed when I was a kid. My dumb-ass mother destroyed all of my magic trick sets and books out of fear of the demons.

    It was literally a childrens books on conjuring.

  • Doctor Who
    Doctor Who

    I can relate pale.emperor. I had an overzealous elder once go batshit crazy because I did a card trick at a get together. Simple trick a 5 year old could do, but the dumbass was yelling I was inviting demons into our congregation. I was 18 at the time and not baptized. Should have been a HUGE warning sign.

  • Prester John
    Prester John

    Don't want to get too off topic, but wasn't there a big rumpus over chess some years back?

    It was definitely perceived as a bit dodgy for a time thanks to an article in the Awake which highlighted its origins as a game of strategy and war. I'm sure that some felt forced to destroy their hand carved chess sets.

  • iwantoutnow
    iwantoutnow

    I still was an Elder when this happened. I freaked out a couple older sisters.

    We were at a "gathering" and they were talking about how all these "spiritistic movies are out now", like it was something new.

    I was already PIMO too. So I was getting annoyed under my skin.

    I was asking them what is "magic" and they gave the answer - demons using their powers to do something that couldn't be done.

    I asked them, what's a "miracle"? God or angels doing something with their powers that could not be done.

    Then I asked them, who gave demons the power to do "things that could not be done normally"?

    "well I guess jah did, but....."

    Then I said, well if the power came from the SAME place, and it does the same thing "do something that could not be done normally", using the word miracle or magic, is just semantics right?

    And most people when they hear the word magic, they think of what magicians do, which everyone know is sleight of hand or complicated tricks. No one thinks David Copperfield actually made the statue of liberty disapear, right?

    OMG you could smell the short circuits in their heads, and the Cognitive Dissidence was in full swing.

    I am sure they didnt think of me the same after that, though what I said was 100% true.

  • blondie
    blondie

    Prester John, the brouhaha over chess was in 1973 during the Bobby Fischer craze. Not much mentioned about it today and I doubt many jws remember the 1973 "caution" by the WTS. It was insane then, there are so many games based on the principal of war even back then. Even now paint ball and lazer tag are very popular. I have not found any articles in the WT or books by the WTS. All seem to be in the Awake. I knew many jws (most male) who felt because the WTS had nothing directly in print forbidding or a dance around it, that it was okay for jws to participate.

    Of course, that doesn't include the wars behind the scenes between elders, elder bodies, and other so-called spiritual male jws. Isn't any game one of competition and winning at almost all costs? One of the GB has compared football (American) to wars.

    He said something like this:

    https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/85061/comments-you-will-hear-2-13-05-wt-study-abbreviated

    If you are really pursuing everlasting life, then your record of field ministry should indicate that. Do you spend at least ten hours each month preaching and teaching the Bible truth to others? Can you imagine Paul being contented with less than ten hours a month even when he found it necessary to work full time making tents? What do you suppose he was doing on weekends, evenings? Studying God?s Word, doing God?s work, or attending a contest between the gladiators in the local coliseum, saying he had no time for the ministry??Acts 18:3, 4.

    or this

    https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4668758543040512/counsel-from-bro-losch-gb-member-elders-about-nfl

    While attending a week long training class for Elders in Patterson, Bro Losch gave the concluding talk about loyalty to the Borg, which I was in awe of(I went more in detail in a recent post about a S.A.D. where Losch was the speaker). At the end of his Talk, here's what he said:

    "I have some Counsel for You Brothers about Sports, in particular a certain game where they mimic ancient gladiators, by putting on plastic armor and pads, then brutally attacking their opponents, trying to injure them by going after an egg shaped ball." (Football)

    I then came out of my "hypnotic state", and said to myself; WTF did he just say?

    After he was done, we were dismissed. Many Elders were talking about the evils of Football. I kept my mouth shut for a little while(I really love Football). However, on the shuttle ride back to the Airport (this was a Van driven by a male Bethelite), there were 12 other Elders in this Van and I had to ask the driver... "How do the Bethelites feel about Pro Football?" He said: "Did you guys get that speech about Football from Bro. Losch? I said yes. He then said: "Other members on the Governing Body do not share his view!" In fact, we here call him "NFL", No Football Losch". Some of us laughed, while others did not think that statement was funny. Then the driver looked at me in the mirror and said: By the way, I'm a Jets fan!"

    An Elder sitting next to me from Alabama said: "that driver is in the wrong and needs to be counseled! I am going to write a letter to the Branch about this driver and his lack of respect toward members of the Governing Body"!

    Or this in a WTS publication

    ** w02 8/15 p. 29 Do You Remember? ***

    The violent and deadly gladiatorial events of the Roman Empire have been compared to what modern spectator sports?

    A recent exhibit in the Colosseum in Rome, Italy, suggested modern parallels by including video clips of bullfighting, professional boxing, auto and motorcycle races, and spectator fights at other modern sports events. Early Christians took to heart that Jehovah does not love violence or violent ones, and neither should Christians today. (Psalm 11:5)—6/15, page 29

    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002446?q=gladiators&p=sen

    *** jd chap. 9 p. 121 par. 19 Dealing With Others as God Desires ***

    Though Habakkuk was forced to keep looking upon mere trouble and the “violence in front of” him, it grieved him. You might now ask, ‘Would he be comfortable sitting with me and looking at the programs I regularly watch on television?’ Ask also, ‘Would he set aside time to be a spectator at so-called sports events that are violent by design, players even wearing protective armor like that of ancient gladiators?’ With certain games, the thrill for many springs from fights on the court or the field or those between crazed fans. In some cultures, many watch violent films and videos centered on warfare or the martial arts. This may be excused as history or a display of the nation’s cultural past, but does that make the violence more acceptable?—Proverbs 4:17.

    https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4668758543040512/counsel-from-bro-losch-gb-member-elders-about-nfl?page=4
  • pale.emperor
    pale.emperor

    If in doubt follow this simple rule:

    Does it cause joy and laughter or does it induce smiles? - Then it's not allowed.

  • steve2
    steve2

    Rattigan350 said:

    Can you believe that people have to be told that the Bible is not against slight of hand magic tricks as if they believe demons are behind that.

    Maybe back in the Bible days, people did all that stuff. Who knows. But magic is not real now.

    In general, I think this is correct. However, belief in superstition and supernatural forces still pervades people's reactions, including even to sleight of hand. It's as if some people are convinced supernatural forces must be involved if they cannot work out how certain stunts are performed. As Richard Dawkins has said, people tend to "spiritualize" gaps in their knowledge: E.g., if they are convinced something cannot be explained as being of this world, it must be of another world or set of rules.

  • Lost in the fog
    Lost in the fog

    Regarding CHESS, our congregation had an elder who was prepared to form a judicial committee if anyone continued to play the game after he had warned them.

    Why? Because the Society linked chess playing to warfare! I know one kid in the 1970s who quit the congregation over this very issue.

    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/lv/r1/lp-e/0/54995

  • blondie
    blondie

    LITF, I remember those days although not to the point of df'ing, men losing privileges perhaps or not getting them in the first place. I am always amazed that one elder could or was given that much power by the other elders, or perhaps it was a paper threat. As I have said, why is football (including soccer), playing or watching, not as bad.

    Woops, pushed the button too soon:

    Not too many elders played or play chess I bet, but many watched or watch football and similar sports, even to the point of running out to the parking lot to catch the score during meetings/assemblies/conventions. Some even had rooms made into shrines to their favorite team, or attached flags to their vehicles with their teams logo/colors. Yes better a manly thing than one that involved thinking, not a manly thing, evidently.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    You mean, like the magic that comes when you practice what is in that filthy bible? The book is aimed at global slavery, and is one giant magic practice toward that end. Even the verse numbers and numbers of chapters and verses are keyed to specific effects toward cursing humanity into slavery. Anyone that truly wishes to be completely and totally free from magic needs to get rid of that bible, and stop heeding the advice therein. And no, getting a quran is no better because that does exactly the same thing.

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