How to argue with a JW who says the org never said the end in 75

by dogon 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Finkelstein

    Part of the corruption instilled into the WTS is that they insist that they alone have been chosen by god to dispense bible truths, in spite many of its core established doctrines were against scripture, particularly how the Gospel was to be preached by Jesus himself.

    The WTS and its leaders were more faithfully subservient to the activity to this publishing house than Jehovah or his son. Doctrines were preached beyond what is truly written superimposed to be attractive to the general public and to those who were to distribute those pieces of literature.

    Uncompromised truth and honest is not the game these men play and when pressed to openly explain their operations they will lie or twist up half truths to relentlessly support themselves and their actions.

  • cha ching
    cha ching

    I like that, Island Man!

    That is is exactly what the WT does, great catch! :

    "Well Satan never explicitly told Eve that God was a selfish ruler withholding good from humans and that humans are better off ruling themselves, did he? Yet the org. reads those insinuations into Satan's words and charges him with being just as guilty as if he had explicitly said it! So since the org. judges others for what they do not explicitly say but insinuate; then it is only fair that others also judge the org. for what it does not explicitly say but clearly insinuates."

  • Fisherman

    as the appointed F&DS, to stop the brothers from selling their houses,

    Anyone at that time reading the literature and listening to the discourses could only conclude that the FDS believed 1975 was the "finish line."

  • Finkelstein

    I was there st the time and were a lot jws teens dropping out of school I was one, many married people said they wouldn't have any children in this system of things, some suicides by overly anxious. emotionally and mentally disturbed people.

    Fear and anxiety was rampant to say the least.

    All because of some self indulgent deceitfully charlatans running their own publishing house without any governing control to what they said and did.

  • prologos
    Fis: "Anyone at that time reading the literature and listening to the discourses could only conclude that the FDS believed 1975 was the "finish line."

    The reason for the stunned silence of the wt leadership to the surge in 1975, was that for the first time they actually saw the hand of god in action Vox populi, vox dei.

    Fin: "Fear and anxiety was rampant to say the least

    even worldly magnates, that respected the sincere witnesses, had the fear of 1975 in them. it was the time to be a long time special pioneer, basking in security.

  • Crazyguy

    And like someone posted above if they the GB are the true faithful and discreet slave, chosen to be Gods only channel that truth from god comes though, then why is most of the crap that they have taught over the years been ideas and teachings from other churches. 1975 was from Armstrong, Pyramidolgy was originally an idea going back as far as Isaac Newton, invisible presence came from Mrs white and the beginnings of the seventh Adventist day church.

    End times dates from the book of Daniel and the end of the gentile times came from a book written by an Englishman in London before 1844 (can't remember the title) . So much of what they teach as thier bible truths came from somebody else, I'm not even sure if they ever had an original thought.

  • Finkelstein

    Since 1975 was calculated upon the 6000 year existence of mankind, here's some background information which might be of interest .

    The Millennial day theory, or the Sabbath millennium theory, is a theory in Christian eschatology in which the Second Coming of Christ will occur 6,000 years after the creation of mankind, followed by 1,000 years of peace and harmony.[1] It is a very popular belief accepted by certain premillennialists who usually promote young earth creationism.

    The view takes the stance that each millennium is actually a day according to God (as found in Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8), and that eventually at the end of the 6,000 years since the creation, Jesus will return.[2][3] It teaches that the 7th millennium is actually called the Sabbath Millennium, in which Jesus will ultimately set up his perfect kingdom and allow his followers to rest.[4] The Sabbath Millennium is believed to be synonymous with the Millennial Reign of Christ that is found in Revelation 20:1-6.[5]



    Early premillennialists included Pseudo-Barnabas,[6] Papias,[7] Methodius, Lactantius,[8] Commodianus[9] Theophilus, Tertullian,[10] Melito,[11] Hippolytus of Rome, Victorinus of Pettau [12][13] and various Gnostics groups and the Montanists. Many of these theologians and others in the early church expressed their belief in premillennialism through their acceptance of this sexta-septamillennial tradition. This belief claims that human history will continue for 6,000 years and then will enjoy Sabbath for 1,000 years (the millennial kingdom), thus all of human history will have a total of 7,000 years prior to the new creation. Christians throughout history have often considered that some thousand-year Sabbath, expected to begin six thousand years after Creation, might be identical with the millennium described in the Book of Revelation. This view was also popular among 19th- and 20th-century dispensational premillennialists. The term "Sabbatism" or "Sabbatizing" (Greek Sabbatismos), which generically means any literal or spiritual Sabbath-keeping, has also been taken in Hebrews 4:9 to have special reference to this definition.

    The Seven Millennia according to the Millennial Day Theory

    Years: 0 - 1000 1000 - 2000 2000 - 3000 3000 - 4000 4000 - 5000 5000 - 6000 6000 - 7000

    Day of Creation:

    1 (Sunday)

    Events: Creation; The Garden of Eden; The Fall; Cain and Abel; Adam dies.

    2 (Monday)

    Events: Enoch translated; Wickedness increases; the Nephilim; The global flood; Tower of Babel; The confusion of languages.

    3 (Tuesday)

    Events: Abraham born; Abraham's calling; Egyptian persecution; Exodus; Mosaic Law established; Joshua enters promised land; King Saul.

    4 (Wednesday)

    Events: Israel in promised land; King David; King Solomon; 1st Temple established and destroyed; Daniel in Babylon; Major and Minor prophets written.

    5 (Thursday)

    Events: Jesus Christ; Crucifixion; Resurrection; Church established; 2nd Temple destroyed; Constantine the Great establishes state church; Roman Empire Falls; Muhammad born; Charlemagne crowned Holy Roman Emperor.

    6 (Friday)

    Events: The crusades; The Dark Ages; Black Death; Columbus sets foot on America; Protestant Reformation; The Enlightenment; Scientific Revolution; United States established; World War 2; Israel regathered; Six Day War; The Antichrist; The Tribulation; Jesus returns.

    Shabbat /(Saturday)

    Events: Peace for 1000 years; Satan loosed; Gog and Magog; 2nd Resurrection

    Support for the theory

    The main support for this view is found in the passages regarding the original Sabbath system that the Judeo-Christian God instituted, while also taking the verses of Psalms 90:4[14] and 2 Peter 3:8[15] into consideration. According to the proponents of the theory, Hosea 6:1-2[16] demonstrates that after 2 days, the Lord will revive Israel, and on the third day, restore her and live with her forever.[17] According to these Christians, Jesus has indeed been gone for two millenniums.[18] He was crucified during a time of severe Roman oppression that was directed towards Israel, which eventually caused the dispersion of Israel in the 1st century AD. Counting the first two days as two millenniums, and the third day as the Millennium in which Christ reigns on Earth may invariably lead to the conclusion that Jesus will return soon - most likely within the 21st century. It is this perception of Bible prophecy that provides the motivation to create a theory that is rooted in absolute Biblical literalism and is entirely based on Premillennialism.



  • Perry, Richard H. "The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Last Days". Penguin Group Publishing (USA). pg. 28-34; 320-321. ISBN 1-59257-561-7


  • Perry, Richard H. "The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Last Days". Penguin Group Publishing (USA). pg. 28-34; 320-321. ISBN 1-59257-561-7


  • ”Among the Apostolic Fathers Barnabas is the first and the only one who expressly teaches a pre-millennial reign of Christ on earth. He considers the Mosaic history of the creation a type of six ages of labor for the world, each lasting a thousand years, and of a millennium of rest, since with God ‘one day is as a thousand years.’ Millennial Sabbath on earth will be followed by an eighth and eternal day in a new world, of which the Lord’s Day (called by Barnabas ‘the eighth day’) is the type(access The Epistle of Barnabas here). Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2 (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, n.d.) 382.

  • Introductory Note to the Fragments of Papias

  • Insruct. adv. Gentium Deos, 43, 44.

  • According to the Encyclopedia of the Early ChurchCommodian (mid-3rd century) takes up the theme of the 7000 years, the last of which is the millennium (Instr. II 35, 8 ff.).” M. Simonetti, “Millenarism,” 560.

  • Against Marcion, book 3 chp 25

  • Simonetti writes in the Encyclopedia of the Early Church “We know that Melito was also a millenarian" regarding Jerome's reference to him as a chiliast. M. Simonetti, “Millenarism,” 560.

  • Note this is Victorinus of Pettau not Marcus Piav(v)onius Victorinus the Gaelic Emperor

  • In his Commentary on Revelation and from the fragment De Fabrica Mundi (Part of a commentary on Genesis). Jerome identifies him as a premillennialist.




  • Perry, Richard H. "The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Last Days". Penguin Group Publishing (USA). pg. 28-34; 320-321. ISBN 1-59257-561-7

    1. Perry, Richard H. "The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Last Days". Penguin Group Publishing (USA). pg. 28-34; 320-321. ISBN 1-59257-561-7

    See also

  • smiddy

    I havent read all these previous posts sadly , maybe i will get around to it, however doesnt whatever they say in print such as the Watchtower or Awake magazines have any bearing on this issue ?

    Surely they have to be accountable for what they print in theses magazines .

    Theire are many inferences of Armageddon happenining in 1975

    The WT, .A creative day is 7000 years long.

    The WT, Creation of man occured in over 4000 years Bc

    The Wt said 6000 years would end in 1975 ( after readjusting those dates from the late 1800s )

    And Christ jesus rule was to be for 1000 years would be an appropiate time for him to take his reign in 1975 for his 1000 year reign

    That was the feeling back their in the 1970`s- 80`s

  • jhine

    I had a (short ) discussion about this a few months ago with two JW ladies . I am in the UK so l don't know if this makes a difference .

    I mentioned 1975 and 1914 , now interestingly the slightly older lady was about to question 1914 , not 1975 , and the younger one butted in and admitted the 1914 date .

    I can only assume that she realised from other conversations that we have had that l knew my facts and denial would make them look silly . Now are US JWs more ignorant or did l just find the only two Brit JWs who know this ?


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