How to argue with a JW who says the org never said the end in 75

dogon

I have argued with several JWs who are now being trained to deny the org ever said the end in 75, what is your approach?

sir82

"I was there. I heard the talks and read the articles".

Of course, that approach won't work for everyone.

They try to get away with claiming that they never really said specifically that the end would come in 1975, instead always bouncing around with words along the lines of: "...will the end come on that date? it could, it could.." or "...6000 year mark of creation is on 1975, that's all we are saying". However, they knew quite well what they were implying with such statements.

Personally, I would just let the publications speak for themselves. Gather up some quotes and print them. Heck, even the WT itself had to admit that it was responsible for arousing "considerable expectation" for the year 1975 (Watchtower 1980 Mar 15 p.17 )

Londo111

If only JWs were not indoctrinated to basically run from discussions they cannot win. Otherwise it would be a simply matter of pulling up all the publications leading up to that time.

But the pattern is seen time and time again: the party line will be given (and very defensively at that), "The organization never said that, only a few individuals ran ahead..." After that the conversation will close down.

blondie

Here is a link to jwfacts.com where he lists WT quotes about 1975.

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1975.php

links to quotes from talks at that time too.

I lived through it too, but jws have convenient memories and cognitive dissonance kicks in.

StarTrekAngel

Well, they can try and beat around the bush. They start sounding like politicians when they do that. Most politicians nowadays know exactly what toe nails taste like. Then they send their "spokeperson" to clarify what they meant.

I would say the most damming piece of publication, which leaves little to interpretation is where they clarify they do not know the exact date and time but they also flaunt that they could not be mistaken by more than a couple of weeks. Also the part where they well say that going to college will be useless, since the end will be here before you graduate.

1 Corinthians 14:9 comes to mind every time I hear a WT argument that requires more than two questions to make it clear.

Lostandfound

I would point out that congregations had a special evening talk as an extra on CO visit pre 75 , scripted and specific that 75 was the thing, people retired, sold houses and threw themselves into field service, nothing happened except the sound of silence. CoC refers to the "apology" ' it's your own fault for believing' many months after 75, only congregation members allowed to attend

CoC very clear on this all.

Incidentally, have the WT ever repudiated Fred Franz delusions, such as absurd Revelation book. We had this 3 times over in old congregation book studies because WT held inventory which they wanted to move, books paid for then.

Gulf Coaster

I was there too. I was 14. It's what started me questioning and doubting this "religion". I was out by age 20, as soon as I could manage it financially. I never felt the love when I was in, hated everything about it, so that 75 crap didn't help.

As far as debating it, don't bother. The one time I brought it up with my mother, she said I was mistaken. When I insisted I wasn't, she told me to stop lying to slander her beliefs or she'd end the conversation. They do not want to believe that their belief system is a pack of lies, it's too scary a place to go to.

TD

Would you agree that, "The answer is 4" and "The answer is 2 + 2" are simply two different ways of saying the same thing?

If the JW says No: Sympathize with them at how they were shortchanged by our education system.

If the JW says Yes: Show them some of the quotes Blondie linked to, especially the one where Jesus' truthfulness in claiming he was Lord of the Sabbath is tied up with the validity of the 1975 prediction in such a way that if one fails, they both fail.

My aged parents who are both in their late 80's and remember the time period are fond of saying that the JW parent organization never actually said when Eve was created, but the truth is the claim that Eve was created less than a year after Adam was made on three separate occasions. At that age though, I think people should probably just be left alone.

Witness 007

Yearbook 1980 had the governing body letter apology for THE FIRST TIME EVER regarding 1975. Publisher figures had dropped by 200,000.