PORTUGAL: Filed a petition to the parliament to erase the legal entity of the Jehovah's Witness

by EdenOne 127 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Simon
    Simon
    Again, this only shows that you haven't bothered to read the petition, otherwise you wouldn't be making these claims. The breaches of the law are pointed there, and each article offended, and how, and the "hate speech" and "discriminatory instructions" are quoted there. If you don't bother to read the text of the petition, I certainly won't bother to discuss this with you.

    OK, then it's clear that you do not understand what those terms mean.

    This comes up a lot - people label WT articles as hate speech or discrimination but those terms, when used in law, are not the same as many think of them.

    Sorry, but if any ex-JW is claiming that they have suffered torture at the hands of the WTS then they are an idiot.

    It's actually pretty easy to prove. All it takes is their literature and their confidential letters. And testimonials, including mine and my family, notwithstanding many others that I can produce.

    You say it's easy but I suspect you'll reach for some snippet of a WatchTower article from 1950 or something and think that they won't present a mountain of fine sounding quotes from many more recent ones.

    Testimonials don't count for much because it will come down to "they told us that if we believe XYZ then we should do this and we did it". So you did it, not them, based on your beliefs

    Threatening to disfellowship and shun someone if that person refuses to shun a disfellowshipped / disassociated person - I call that enforcing the policy against people's will. It's plain to see on the Shepherd the Flock of God elder's manual.

    So? Our rules of membership are XYZ, you chose to belong and abide by those rules or you don't. But if you don't, you can't force others who do to stop abiding by them or the rules to change.

    This would be a case that would break new ground.

    So doing anything under UN type treaties or declarations will fail because if you bother to look at the documents for submitting a claim, much of them are about documenting how the legal cases haven't been handled satisfactorily. Higher courts dealing with high-level stuff don't deal with theory, they deal with case law and correcting lower courts decisions or coming up with new rulings to apply to clarify what the law means.

    You need to prosecute a case first.

    If one doesn't bother to challenge the "status quo", nothing will change. Watchtower used to hide behind the "confession privilege" to claim that elders weren't allowed to report to the authorities the complaints of child sex abuse that they became aware of. Until someone challenged that in court. And now the Watchtower cannot use that argument anymore. But someone had to challenge that status quo.

    Yes, as I said, someone went to court. It starts there.

    The Watchtower will have to stop hiding behind the "religious freedom" to spew hate speech and teach / enforce discrimination and social ostracization. It takes someone to challenge that status quo. If my angle doesn't work, so be it. Someone else will find another. And another. And another. Until the Watchtower cannot hide anymore and concedes to change via some "new light". Who cares. As long as it changes.

    Because you are so fixated on changing things that you are not thinking about whether the change you want would be better or worse. You are only seeing the benefits to yourself and your own situation or experience, not how the changes you seek could be misused.

    Realistically, that's the only real risk at stake here. That this isn't considered a priority; especially because it might strike a nerve with the RCC. Still, it's a risk worth taking.

    No, it isn't, there are huge risks in pushing for ill-conceived laws that could be misused. You want to remove a significant personal freedom and change from being free to associate with who you want to to it being mandated association if someone else wants it. Hey, your still-in's want you back at the KH - you have to go, the law demands it. Have to attend your 5 meetings a week or else you'll be reported to the Minister of Forced Association.

    You still haven't made one reasonable argument as to why isn't worth trying.

    I think I have but I'm probably just as biased as you are so it's more for other people to decide. I'm explaining why the low number of signatures suggests that others have reasoned that it isn't worth trying.

    Freedoms are important. Having them often means defending the rights of other people to behave in ways we don't like, even ways that may hurt us. But the tradeoff is that the hurt we suffer is usually just emotional and while we may think of that as 'torture' we're not being actually tortured as some are in countries that do not have our freedoms.

    If anyone's family decides to put something else ahead of their relationships then as long as it is not under real duress they have that right. We have the same rights - it's why we can chose to associate with some family that we like and not with others that we don't. Shunning works both ways.

    I have lost countless years of association with my family and it would be easy to blame the WTS for it but you know who's fault it was? My family's for going along with it! They made the choices and they don't get to excuse themselves of what they did by saying "someone told us to". I still wouldn't trade the freedoms I have because while it caused me some hurt, I think we have a choice of whether we let it define us and make us a victim or whether we see life for what it is - there are some people we are genetically closer to than others, but we can't control or dictate choices to anyone whether they are family or just friends. We can try to convince and reason with people but that is all - everyone has to be free to make their own choices and that will inevitably mean some people make really bad ones, that's the deal with freedom.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot
    "...doing anything under UN type treaties or declarations..."

    I find attempts to appeal to the principles contained in UN human-rights-violation - related resolutions bizarrely ironic, actually, considering...

    A) ...the Org's beliefs about the UN, and...

    B) ...the UN's general inablilty do actually do anything about said violations.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Vidiot, the Portuguese constitution adopted the principles of the UN DOHR, which means they carry the same weight as the Constitution itself in our internal normative system. The Religious Freedom Act 16/2001 also explicitly remits to the Constitution and the DOHR. At least in theory, breaching those rights is in fact breaking the law. That's not the foundation of this petition, but is an accessory argument to the case in point.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne
    So you are part of this initiative edenone? - Ruby 456

    I am the first signatory and mentor of this petition.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne
    I still wouldn't trade the freedoms I have because while it caused me some hurt, I think we have a choice of whether we let it define us and make us a victim or whether we see life for what it is - there are some people we are genetically closer to than others, but we can't control or dictate choices to anyone whether they are family or just friends. - Simon

    We just have to agree to disagree on that one.

    Try explaining that to this teenage girl of 16 years old whose parents threw her out of the house because she committed "fornication" with a "worldly" boyfriend. Why? Because that's what the video in the last convention told them it was the right thing to do! It was "proper food at the right time!"And you think this family that kicked her to the curb would have done it had it not been the propaganda spewed by the religious organization they idolize? Come on!

    I can count myself lucky - the family on my side hasn't cut me off. So no, it's not about ME being a victim. It's about many thousands of people who have been screwed up by shunning and everything that it entails. Nothing will come out of doing nothing. So, I decided to do SOMETHING. That's all there is to it.

  • Drearyweather
    Drearyweather

    Hi EdenOne, Some questions came to my mind after reading your conversation with Simon:

    I can count myself lucky - the family on my side hasn't cut me off.So no, it's not about ME

    In an earlier post you mentioned that it is easy to prove that shunning policy of JW's are violating human rights because you have testimonials of you and your family as proof of it. But now you say that your family doesn't shun you and hence the petition is not about you?

    Try explaining that to this teenage girl of 16 years old whose parents threw her out of the house because she committed "fornication" with a "worldly" boyfriend.

    The problem with this example is there are many non-JW's would react the same and there are many cases where people throw their children out and cut-off contact with them. JW's are a minority group, hence the cases of JW's shunning their family members are way much much lesser than other religions or non-religious people who shun and even harm and torture their family members for wrongdoing.

    In India, there are some states where people still believe in honor killing, where parents will even kill their adult children if they marry outside their caste. A 16 year old, fornicating? The entire family will be cast out and will be hounded for the rest of their lives.

    It's about many thousands of people who have been screwed up by shunning and everything that it entails.

    Thousands of lives screwed. But not one court case to back up the petition? Or Am I wrong?

    So, I decided to do SOMETHING.

    I don't want to question your intentions. Let's assume that the WT in Portugal gets de-registered as a legal entity. But, history has shown that GB has never changed any core policies like shunning when any country has banned them. There are countries where JW's are under ban, but policies are the same.

    You said that you want the WT to be legally de-registered but individuals should have the right to continue as JW's. So, what if individual JW's continue to shun their family members even if their entity is deregistered? So would you have the law punish them? JW's would stop shunning only if their GB tells them to do so, not if any any country or any law tells them.

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    EdenOne

    the video was real and graphic and I can see how you are describing psychological torture. this was shown to all ages and was meant to be taken as the way to act towards one,s children.

    i hope that you can achieve a softer form of institutional life for Jehovah,s witnesses. It is a very hard and harsh form of institutional practice that is in place at the moment and this form has gone from bad to worse.

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    edenone I think you may need to walk people through the steps after one signs the petition and gets the e-mail as it is hard to decipher because of the language barrier.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne
    In an earlier post you mentioned that it is easy to prove that shunning policy of JW's are violating human rights because you have testimonials of you and your family as proof of it. But now you say that your family doesn't shun you and hence the petition is not about you? - Drearyweather

    Not MY side of the family (except for a distant cousin who shuns me) but my wife's side of the family, yes.

    In India, there are some states where people still believe in honor killing, where parents will even kill their adult children if they marry outside their caste. A 16 year old, fornicating? The entire family will be cast out and will be hounded for the rest of their lives.

    This petition does not concern what happens in India.The citizens of India must stand up for their rights, and many are doing it as we write. Just because something is deeply rooted in the local culture, doesn't make it morally acceptable.

    Thousands of lives screwed. But not one court case to back up the petition? Or Am I wrong?

    Not to my knowledge in Portugal. When you consider how slowly justice works in Portugal and how expensive it is to pay a lawyer, and because THIS IS NOT ABOUT MONEY OR SEEKING COMPENSATIONS, it's no wonder that people don't take it to court. (Just to put things in perspective: A Lawyer will charge about 350,00 € to write a simple letter to, say, challenge a simple fine. Compare that with the minimum monthly wage in Portugal, which is 580,00 €, and you'll understand why hiring a lawyer to take a case to court puts people off). Not everything can be translated into money. We seek relief for the victims and no money can pay for that. Only a change in policy would.

    history has shown that GB has never changed any core policies like shunning when any country has banned them.

    This is not about banning the religion. Everyone is entitled to believe in some stupidity, as long as that freedom doesn't entail the violation of other people's fundamental rights.

    And, I beg to disagree about the GB not changing their policies when under pressure. See when the IRS went after Jimmy Swaggart and his printed magazine? The GB felt that it could mean financial trouble for them, and voila! "new light" - the literature was no longer sold. And this is just one case that we know of. How many times the "new light" was driven by their fear of financial losses? I think that is the only language that they are sensitive to: their pockets. Losing charity status in Portugal could do just that to them - not to mention the reverberation it could mean for them all across the European Union.





  • EdenOne
    EdenOne
    edenone I think you may need to walk people through the steps after one signs the petition and gets the e-mail as it is hard to decipher because of the language barrier. - ruby456


    ok, so here are the steps:

    1) Find the petition on this address: http://peticaopublica.com/pview.aspx?pi=ExtRegistoATJ

    You will see this on your screen:

    2 - The text of the petition is on the left. Scroll down to read in its entirety. Then on the right, press the green button to sign for the petition.

    EDIT: FOR SOME REASON I AM UNABLE TO POST MORE PICTURES ON THIS POST. I WILL CONTINUE ON THE NEXT POST.

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