WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon 865 Replies latest social current

• 

  dubla

  simon-

  im still waiting to hear what ive supposedly misrepresented. surely it would be quite simple to point out? unless this is an empty claim...??

  realist-

  first of all, would you agree that powell lied to the UN when he showed the satellite pictures

  i just have a question here......what if (now bear with me here, its a "what if" question) the trucks found recently turn out to be the very trucks that powell presented to the un in that report (the mobile bio factories)? does this add credibility to other areas of his report, or would it simply be a grand coincidence?

  hussein's only chance was to convince the world that he had destroyed all WMD...why keep them?

  the only reason to keep them would have been to use them in case of an attack...did he use them? no....only possible conclusion imo...he indeed didn'T have any left.

  weve been over this so many times, that i almost feel bad addressing it again, but i cant help myself, lol. you are once again stating that "the only reason to keep them" would be for self defense....but remember, thats only your opinion. many have the opinion that saddam wouldnt hesitate to sell these weapons to terrorist groups (he could have already), or use them again to keep the kurds in check, or use them against american interests in the region, etc, etc. i respect that you dont feel he would have ever done any of these things, but you have to at least leave open the possibility, unless of course youve read saddams mind lately.

  also, heres some words from hans blix:

  "Mustard gas is not marmalade. You are supposed to know what you did with it."

  hes got a point there, dont you think? and its the same point ive been making all along.....we all know for fact that saddam had large quantities of mustard gas (among other things), not from intelligence, but from saddams own admission, and the actual use of it on his own people. these quantities to this day are unaccounted for.....if he was so intent on proving to the world it was gone, why not simply show documentation that it had been destroyed? not one person, ill repeat that, not one person on the anti side has given a reasonable explanation for why this would be so difficult.....yet it was never done, and no one can say he didnt even have the opportunity to do so.

  aa
• 

  Pleasuredome

  just to go off topic for a moment, here's what a senior Blair advisor had to say about the reason for invading iraq:

  ``I don't think the war would have happened if Iraq didn't have the second-largest oil reserves in the world,'' Porritt said in a Sky News television interview.

  http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=ahJS35XsmXGg&refer=europe
• 

  Realist

  dubla,

  about powell....yes indeed, if these trucks would have turned out the be the ones shown on the satellite pictures i would agree....but they didn'T.

  as i stated IMO it wouldn'T make sense for hussein to keep WMD. to give them to terrorists? there is no link between hussein and al-qaida terrorists. also...he was very well capable of controlling the kurds and shiits without WMD in 1991.

  finally....where do the numbers come from about how much gas hussein had in 1991??? do you have any info on how much he supposedly had? and how much supposedly was desroyed? also....how long can one store these gases??? i am pretty sure one can'T store them for 12 years.
• 

  dubla

  realist-

  about powell....yes indeed, if these trucks would have turned out the be the ones shown on the satellite pictures i would agree....but they didn'T.

  well, im glad that you agree....but i didnt see that they had ruled out that possibility.?. do you have a link by chance? it would have been since yesterday, because as of 5/13 they were still running tests on the new discoveries.

  as i stated IMO it wouldn'T make sense for hussein to keep WMD. to give them to terrorists? there is no link between hussein and al-qaida terrorists.

  you act as if al qaeda is the only dangerous terrorist group in the world. lets not forget the huge terrorist training camps that were found in iraq during the war.

  he was very well capable of controlling the kurds and shiits without WMD in 1991.

  he also gassed them.....he was probably capable of controlling them without the gas, but that didnt prevent him from using it. maybe he just used it for fun?

  finally....where do the numbers come from about how much gas hussein had in 1991???

  i dont know where blix gets his numbers....id guess straight from iraqs own admission, but id have to do some research to know for sure...........and dont forget, blix opposed the war.

  do you have any info on how much he supposedly had? and how much supposedly was desroyed? also....how long can one store these gases??? i am pretty sure one can'T store them for 12 years.

  ive seen the figures on how much he admitted to having (and obviously his admission would be much less than the actual amount....common sense), but no i dont have them at my fingertips....again, some digging would be necessary. as far as how long they can be stored, i havent heard about any "expiration date" on mustard gas, but i suppose thats possible....im not a chemical weapons expert....maybe someone else could shed light on that question.

  aa
• 

  Realist

  dubla,

  how exactly can one identify a terrorist training camp? and what do they train there? how to blow themselfs up? just curious.

  the only vehicles i am aware of were found about a week ago....so since it doesn'T take too long to identify a specific gas or specific bakteria i assume it was once again a false alarm.

  if you accidentially come across any numbers about how much gas hussein is believed to have had let me know!
• 

  dubla

  realist-

  finally....where do the numbers come from about how much gas hussein had in 1991??? do you have any info on how much he supposedly had?

  heres some of iraqs admitted numbers.....and imo, the actual numbers would be much higher than what they would admit to having........

  30. In 1981, Iraq started producing the blister agent mustard
  (HD). Iraq's earlier declarations of 3,080 tons produced have
  been reduced in the latest disclosure to 2,850 tons. The
  quality of the mustard agent was good (not less than
  80 per cent pure) and was such that the agent could be stored
  for long periods, either in bulk or in weaponized form.

  http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/s/s1995-0284.htm

  also....how long can one store these gases??? i am pretty sure one can'T store them for 12 years.

  Even years after its production, the mustard agent analysed by the
  Commission was found to be in good and usable condition.

  http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/s/s1995-0284.htm
  

  and how much supposedly was desroyed?

  34. Over the period from June 1992 to June 1994, the
  Commission's Chemical Destruction Group destroyed 30 tons of
  tabun, 70 tons of sarin and 600 tons of mustard agent, stored
  in bulk and in munitions.

  http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/s/s1995-0284.htm

  now, that was back '94, and i know in 1997 thousands of tons of chemical agents were destroyed by unmovic, but im having a hard time narrowing down (with links) how much of the mustard gas was destroyed. heres what blix had to say about unaccounted for chemical weapons in february 2003 (bold, italic mine):

  To take an example, a document, which Iraq provided, suggested to us that some 1,000 tonnes of chemical agent were “unaccounted for”. One must not jump to the conclusion that they exist. However, that possibility is also not excluded. If they exist, they should be presented for destruction. If they do not exist, credible evidence to that effect should be presented.

  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-578338,00.html

  simple, right? apparently not for saddam....and again, ive yet to hear one reasonable explanation as to why this would be difficult in the time frame he was given..?

  heres a little info on vx:

  36. Iraq also had a research and development programme for the
  production of a further nerve agent, VX. According to Iraq's
  account, VX was the focus of its research efforts in the
  period after September 1987. Iraq has stated that between
  late 1987 and early 1988, a total of 250 tons of phosphorous
  
  pentasulphide and 200 tons of di-isopropylamine were imported,
  these being two key precursors required for the production of
  VX. For the other precursors required, Iraq claims to have
  used only approximately 1 ton of methyl phosphonyl chloride
  (MPC) from a total of 660 tons produced indigenously. The
  remaining MPC is claimed to have been used to produce DF, then
  used in GB/GF production. The fourth precursor required for
  VX, ethylene oxide, was generally available, being a multi-
  purpose chemical.
  
  37. Iraq states that it produced a total of only 10 tons of
  choline from the di-isopropylamine and ethylene oxide and
  approximately 3 tons of methyl thiophosphonyl dichloride from
  the phosphorous pentasulphide and methyl phosphonyl chloride.
  From this, Iraq states that it produced experimental
  quantities of VX (recently increased to 260 kg from 160 kg).
  Iraq has recently admitted that three 250-gauge aerial bombs
  had been filled with VX for experimental purposes.
  
  38. Iraq claims that further attempts to produce VX were
  unsuccessful and the programme was finally abandoned in
  September 1988. According to Iraq's account, the remaining
  choline from the 10 tons was burned in early 1988 and the
  remaining 247 tons of phosphorous pentasulphide was discarded
  in 1991 by scattering it over an area of land and putting it
  in pits. Iraq also claims that 213 tons of di-isopropylamine
  was destroyed by bombing during the Gulf war. However, while
  the Commission has found traces of these chemicals at the
  sites at which Iraq states their destruction occurred, it has
  not been able to verify the quantities destroyed. Thus,
  precursors for the production of at least 200 to 250 tons of
  VX cannot be definitively accounted for.

  http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/s/s1995-0284.htm

  and what blix had to say about it recently:

  The Iraqi side suggested that the problem of verifying the quantities of anthrax and two VX-precursors, which had been declared unilaterally destroyed, might be tackled through certain technical and analytical methods.

  Although our experts are still assessing the suggestions, they are not very hopeful that it could prove possible to assess the quantities of or testimony by staff that dealt with the items still appears to be needed.

  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-578338,00.html

  aa
• 

  Realist

  dubla,

  thanks for the links!

  i will try to find the UN documents directly ...although its usually a pain to read that diplomatic / bureaucratic dribble
• 

  dubla

  realist-

  how exactly can one identify a terrorist training camp?

  i believe the ones in iraq were easily identified by stacks of suicide bomb vests and instruction manuals, among other things.

  and what do they train there? how to blow themselfs up? just curious.

  actually, im sure thats part of it, yes. what they train depends on how sophisticated the camp is......for example, just to give you an idea:

  Osama bin Laden's training camps, prime targets of the U.S.-British military strikes, mix religious instruction with terrorist disciplines, including guns, explosives, hijacking and assassination.

  Instructors train students in math so they can calculate how much of an explosive it takes to destroy a building, according to terrorist trial testimony. Others teach fighters the arts of surveillance and kidnapping. Still others train them to use weapons, from bare hands and knives to belt-fed machine guns and surface-to-air missiles.

  Some insight into life at the camps comes from the testimony during this year's trial in connection with the 1998 bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa. L'Houssaine Kherchtou, a Moroccan who said he trained at the al-Farouq camp near Khost, described his first two-month course of study, beginning with a month of training with pistols, rifles and submachine guns, followed by two weeks learning about mines, explosives and grenades, then two weeks on anti-aircraft weapons.

  Blending in is the key. "You would wear clothing that would not bring suspicion to yourself; you would wear clothing that tourists wear," Ressam said.

  http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/011009-attack02.htm

  the only vehicles i am aware of were found about a week ago....so since it doesn'T take too long to identify a specific gas or specific bakteria i assume it was once again a false alarm.

  heres the latest i saw on it:

  There is "pretty conclusive evidence" that this is a mobile chemical weapons lab, the official said.

  The trailer was discovered near Mosul Saturday by members of the Army's 327th Infantry at a former missile production facility that had been heavily looted. It was made up of refrigeration units and piping, compatible with chemical weapons production. What was also believed to be a spraying device was found nearby, the source said.

  The suspected lab has been turned over to the military's mobile exploitation team.

  Secretary of State Colin Powell presented the defector's account of mobile laboratories to the United Nations in February in an effort to demonstrate that Iraq had violated U.N. resolutions requiring its disarmament.

  Powell has since said the discovery "matches very closely" the information he presented at that time.

  No biological weapons were found inside the trailer, which Cambone said had been washed with "a very caustic substance." But he said it contained equipment not normally used for "legitimate biological processes" -- including exhaust gas recovery systems that could hide evidence of biological weapons production.

  "Part of the reason for wanting to continue with the testing is to be able to reach into those parts of the equipment that can't be reached by the superficial testing that we've been able to do," Cambone said. "So that process has to go forward, and we'll see what that yields."

  Cambone said weapons experts have visited about 70 of the nearly 600 sites U.S. officials believe are related to Iraq's weapons programs, plus another 40 locations Cambone said they were led to from information discovered since Saddam's government collapsed April 9.

  http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/13/sprj.irq.mobile.lab/index.html

  the last truck they found (similar to this one) had also been washed clean with a bleach-like substance.....so identifying specific gasses/chemicals might prove tough with any finds. obviously it can be determined if there was any other possible use for a mobile factory such as this though. could be another false alarm, who knows.

  aa
• 

  Reborn2002

  Hey Jayson-

  To compare my comments to that of a Jehovah's Witness is an unfair analogy. If I were attempting to manipulate you I would state that you can only read documents provided by specifically sanctioned parties. (i.e. Dubs can only read WT literature, NEVER antiJW documents)

  Instead, I am encouraging you to educate yourself and view the issues from both sides. How can you make a comparison to Jehovah's Witnesses? That instead is a desperate jab below the belt.

  It should also be noted that you made a reference to me as cute because I am acting as Simon's lap dog. If you had been around this site longer than two weeks, you would know that in the past Simon and I have had some heated disagreements. I don't kiss up to anybody, I instead stand up for principles and what I believe to be right. When you get your facts straight, then comment. Otherwise you make yourself look foolish unintentionally, because you have not been around here long enough.

  dubla-

  I apologize if I wrongly insinuated you were somehow a member of a "pro-Bush" camp. I did not attempt to bait-and-switch the topic either. What I stated was extremely relevant to this discussion. I was pointing out the corrupt history of the man who has single-handedly perpetrated this war because he is the Chief Executive of the United States and ultimately has the final say.If he is capable of corruptive practices as seen in his past, and has a motive for going after Saddam Hussein, is it not possible, even likely that this has to do with much more than WoMD?

  It is indisputable fact that the United States government went before the world and stated unequivocally that the Iraqis were manufacturing and possess WoMD.

  To date, after conquering the country and having free roam over the entire landscape, they have found NOTHING.

  The justification for this war was that it was a preemptive strike to prevent Hussein from attacking America and it's allies.

  It would most certainly be egg on the face if this war was waged and a country was attacked (resulting in Iraqi civilian deaths, including children) under a false pretense.

  Is it not suspicious that the most advanced intelligence agencies in the world provide satellite evidence showing suspected weapons factories etc.?Yet now a month + into occupation of the entire country... nothing has been found? In fact, everything suspected and tested for weapons has turned out to be menial discoveries?

  I again apologize if I wrongfully lumped you into a category. This is a passionate topic for me because I feel it is a frightening prospect that our nation (the most powerful and influential in the world) is bullying the rest of the world simply because it can. Even if their reasons given are false ones. Soldiers are out on the field dying for us. I respect that. But is it not practical to make sure that they are dying for the right reason?
• 

  Jayson

  Simon says on 5/12
  Jayson. You really summed it up when you say "[we] are not real concerned with WMD being found"
  
  Simon ignores where Jayson said this on 4/24
  As you say that I (speaking as probushusa) consider WoMD are of no consequnce? I wonder how you can think that? Of course they are! Maybe more now than before. I keep prostituting in goes to great lengths about how Saddam is probably no likely to give his prize to Terror organizations because he can't be sure if they will use them as he wanted them used. So now finding them my be more important than before. Because a desperate Iraqi most wanted might do anything to get the hell out of there. You are right! And, I as well as any rational thinking person want the WMD found! I believe they do exist and always have. They need to be found; They must be found. Not because of petty politics and who is right and who is wrong, but because these are very bad things.
  

  Also on 4/24 Jayson said
  I'm just glad Saddam's murderous regime is dead. If Bush gets his WMD validation good for my team; if not and he looses in 2004 then I am still glad that this was done. May it help to end the suffering in Iraq. If relations with the world and the US is damaged beyond repair forever but, 5,000 children in Iraq don't have to die every month anymore I can live with that.
  
  Jayson also said 4/24
  And yes Simon's question is a fair one
  

  Jayson also posted
  I am still confused as to why soldiers are expected to find the existing WMD or their distruction. That is not their job. There is also massive evidence all though be it circumstantial that the weapons do or did exist. Why are some so eager to see the American and British coalition fail? Really how could the UN have done anything better? Better yet why didn't it?
  
  On 4/25 Jayson said
  Answer: Simon I don't know where they are. I have little faith that if I go to Iraq I can find them myself and bring you to them. So the answer is I do not know. You said that you are angry over the ever changing reasons for US reasons for invasion. The reason never changed the need for "regime change" was in play. The UN/Euro pact did not want this because a lot of money was being made just the was; And the US was too. I am angry that the UN made more than one BILLION dollars off the backs of starving Iraqis! Why aren't you?
  
  The US is part of the Security Council in the UN but only one part. My point in this is Moore and his non educated ilk say that UN santions are US santions. This is a lie. And the lack of observing santions made them futile. The UN failed. Which was a direct result of this situation. It does not dismiss the dangers preemptive invasion. But it is part of the explanation. I also asked how bringing Iraqi oil into the frey help Bush and his push for ANWR? You ignored this. Why?

  I started to get quite disgusted with your comments

  We were told that they had WoMD as a certaintly because they knew exactly where they were. Remember all the satellite photo's of the bakery oops "weapons factory"?
  We were told there were hundreds or thousands of tons of chemical weapons, not some little petri-dish somewhere
  It was all fabricated lies as came out from the faked nuclear documents and re-hashed docs they had downloaded and edited off the internet
  I believe they knew for a fact that there were not WoMD there ... they just wanted an 'excuse' for their war. They did everything they could to scupper inspections and hurry things along when Iraq was cooperating (destroying missiles for instance)
  
  You totally sympathize with Saddams Iraq. They are complying with the UN according to you, they are santioned by the US as you say when it is the UN that is that entity according to you. You said that Iraq only fired on US/UK planes in the "No Fly Zones" to defend themselves from Western aggression (Bombing) You ingnore what those Iraqis who only are defending themselves would do to the Kurds if we were not there. You said they are justified in trying to kill the soldiers that protect your rights. Rights that no Iraqi citizen has. You ignore 12 years of horror and bloodshed no 100's of years of it. You have no solution but the same program that was not working inside the UN. Which any suffering was the exclusive fault of the US.

  When dubla pointed out what Powell really said [FACT: said installations were reported moved and bulldozed by powell......these are from your second link (bold, italic mine):] and not what you wanted to hear you dismissed it. Flat out you said so what I like my take better.

  I commented that :The UN inspectors said they needed six months to a year to clear Iraq. In fact Blix said it will take as long as it takes. But in the mean time things keep getting worse and worse. There is a window for war. If that happens than I want as few people on my side to die as possible. You don't care about the UK troops over there. Fine it disgustes me but that is your right. I do care and if that means doing what was done then the leaders have my full support to remove Saddam. He is scum.

  I also said "A bigger issue is the new challege of justifying a preemptive war; when is it just to attack on the premise of what someone might do? I think that Iraq is a case that can be shown to be an anomaly." This is aside from WMD. A whole new chapter of American foriegn policy has unfolded.
  
  When you say:

  Jayson. You really summed it up when you say "[we] are not real concerned with WMD being found"

  I was refering to the weeks into the war that we are in Simon. And I think you know that. I was not saying that the WMD's are now irrelevant as you keep saying. I am saying that it will take some time and judgment can wait.

  Fox is facist reporting? But your intent is that I only listen to Fox.
  http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/107/oped/Trading_truth_for_access_+.shtml
  http://www.dep.org.uk/globalexpress/7/page1.htm
  http://www.medialens.org/alerts/021003_BBC_robotic.html
  http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,924172,00.html

  You talk of Fox being Facist. Well they are far from the bulk of my avenues of formation. You put it out there to try and make people think that someone like me gets all my information from that source. That is not true. "The Threating Storm" makes a bulk of my attitude on Iraq and Saddam and that is why I keep asking you to read it. Unlike Reborn's comment I am willing to share my sources. I am not blindly loyal to Bushes stances. But you Simon are polerized against.

  This is it for me. No more on this issue. People are going to have to decide for themselves if I am brainwashed by my government and if you are fair minded and open to ALL the facts over this issue. I have grown tired and board of it.

  Reborn my comments that you claim I blabber over is not that I think everyone here is stupid. On this thread and others I have recommended the book "The Threating Storm." Is has so many facts in it about all the countries involved in this issue. But all the recomendations for reading something worth while are just ignored in place of the reteric and goes on. And I did not see where I called you a lap dog. If I did then I am sorry.