US Patriotism VS the Rest of the World

by Xena 107 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  gsx1138

  Part of the problem is that the "blind patriots" get all the press. They are the ones making a spectacle of themselves and we all know how much the news loves sensationalism. However, that is not America in general. I believe, in general, most Americans just want to be left alone. They want to make decent money and just "live". Now most other parts of the world don't get these luxuries/freedoms so they are basically playa hatin. I'm an American but I don't think this is the greatest country on Earth. Why? Because I haven't been to any other country. Any person who makes that claim and has not visited anywhere else is full of shit. They are saying it to make themselves believe it and feel better. However, based on the news (yeah, it's biased) I would have to say that we are doing pretty damn good. Despite the turn to a police state with the Patriot Acts we are still doing better than the majority of the world. We have some serious problems here, namely our pathetic educational system, but I think we'll get through them just fine. Although, I think we are raising an entire generation of ignorant kids but that is another topic. This country has its share of blind patriots who are willing to close their eyes to any Government indescretion. Clinton had his and now Bush has his rabid followers as well. I do see a trend in patriotic Ad Hominim attacks. With the war, I'm a frustrated American who has to deal with my own countrymen calling me unpatriotic because I don't support Bush. Which has led me to the conclusion that there is at least two types of patriotism.

  Personal Patriotism:

  The type of patriotism that is personal and holds the belief that you are proud to be a citizen of your country.

  Political Patiotism:

  The type of patriotism used for personal gain or to align yourself with a group in order to be part of the group.

  With this war raging I see tons of Political Patriotism and most of it is aimed at anyone who may not share the same ideas as those in power. I think that this is the type of Patriotism that gets the press and is what the rest of the world gets to see. Sen. John Kerry made a comment about the U.S. needing a "regime change". It was an obvious political ploy and at the very least in poor taste. Instantly, he's being called unpatriotic. This is political patriotism at its finest because unlike Bush, who dodged Vietnam, Kerry was actually a part of that war and put his life on the line for America. As far as I'm concerned, calling a fellow citizen unpatriotic because you don't agree with them is in itself unpatriotic.

  That's my rant and I won't be correcting any spelling because I'm tired.

  of the tired as hell class.
• 

  Brummie

  I'm English born and bred and full blooded, I'm definately patriotic, I became such as soon as I left JWs. When you see an event like 9/11 happen in England (which I fear it will) you will see just how patriotic England is. We will make American patriotics look amature! It will be UK Patriotism VS the rest of the world.

  England, USA and Australia are three countries I will always fly the flag for.

  Brummie
• 

  VeniceIT

  Well one thing I think that needs to be taken into consideration is just the mass of people here in the US. There are probably more Americans that are more patriotic in the US then other countries, by population, and just as many americans that are not, there's just that many americans.

  Now that I've totally confused you all and myself is that, the more people there are that support something, the more overpowering that objective will seem. If your teem has 500 fans, and the other team only 50 who's gonna be the loudest? Most obnoxious? it is just the sheer weight of numbers. On a one to one basis, there probably is not as much of a difference between citizens of any country, we all have the same basic needs and are human beings.

  Ven

  ( think the point that some were making i that sometimes it's irritating when people will make an inflammatory post, and then get defensive if someone calls them on it,and then they attempt to make the person that replied look bad, when they were the one to start it in the first place. They know it no matter how innocent they may appear, simply due to the sheer number of times this has happened) It's all about the numbers tonight!!!!
• 

  mattnoel

  Couldnt of said it better myself Brummie. Personally I like to fly the English and Welsh Flags which are my culture - please dont think that I am being anti american in my above comments, I do have an american flag too, I just wont be flying it outside my house on April 23rd. On Sept 11th however I will wear an american flag pin.

  I have nothing against patriotism, I feel that this is needed, I guess it kinda makes me sick how unpatriotic England is, its only now when we are starting to see all the trouble with assylum seekers and the war etc that we are starting to fly our flags - about bl*ody time is what I say. We can and should be proud of our countries, we just need to learn the equilibrium.

  What saddens me most, is there seems to be too much of these sort of threads and everyone seems to be getting more and more p*ssed at each other. Its so sad how things have become. I think something needs to be done. At the end of the day, we are who we are. One thing is we all have a major thing in common. Patriotism is clearly a sore point, so I think we should drop it and stop bringing it up.
• 

  Englishman

  Patriotism is clearly a sore point, so I think we should drop it and stop bringing it up.

  Weird thing is, that this particular emotion of patriotism comes a lot more naturally than being loyal to the FDS.

  Englishman.
• 

  Realist

  patriotism is indeed a big evil. unfortunately humans always have to form groups and define enemies. from big (countries) down to small groups like school classes etc. (like its my school class aginast yours...my country against yours etc.)

  most humans need the support (and even if its only imagined) of a group they think to belong to.

  thats a behaviour unfortunately inherited from our primate ancestors

  we would need extraterrestrial enemies to get all humankind united.
• 

  JWinSF

  One of the things that appealed most to me about the JWs was their [in theory] stance on being neutral in world politics. Of course, the JWs were anti-Semitic in Nazi Germany trying to suck up to the regime at first. However, even after leaving the JWs, I still view nationalism as basically being destructive in the long run. Unfortunately, we're not in "Star Trek" days yet when all countries of the Earth unite.

  But, being a U.S citizen, I personally find the arrogance of many from the United States to be repulsive. I felt that way before Bush's regime got into power. Now, I feel the arrogance has risen to a scary level. I was one who was not against war with Iraq, provided the USA had gotten its "ducks in a row" and gained world support. The failure to do so, IMO, merely reinforces the Bush administration's poor international negotiation skills. He set a very dangerous precedent going in on a pre-emptive strike basis.

  Obviously, many Iraqis are glad that Saddam Hussein's reign appears to be all but extinct. However, even Gen. Amir al-Saadi, Saddam Hussein's top science adviser who recently turned himself over to US troups still insists that there are no weapons of mass destruction. If this is true, then Bush has a major problem on his hands in that he based the strike on that. So, what's happened for the good of the Iraqi? Civilian deaths, looting, destruction of many artifacts in their Museums [which are irreplaceable], etc. I doubt that Saddam would've killed off so many on his own had he been left in power. Sure, he intimidated through fear. However, couldn't the results have been more positive had the entire world jumped on the bandwagon through skillful USA international skills? Then, with a properly based support, the removal of Saddam?

  Being too old to be put into the armed forces, I can say that even if I was able to, I could at most be a conscientious objector, at worst one who would refuse to be in it if the draft were enacted. I still cannot bear the thought of killing another human [however, I do recognize that in some cases this is necessary for just wars --- after all didn't Jehovah set the example with the Israelites ruthlessly killing the occupants of the Promised Land?]

  This week there was a "South Park" cartoon episode dealing with the protestors against the war and those protesting in support of it. The writers basically put it forth that the USA essentially will go to war for its own interests while allowing those against war to protest. That way, the USA would "have its cake and eat it too" by the [as I remember the lines from the show] hypocritical approach of the USA to freedom, that is that we're for freedom but will fight our way anyway. Don't get me wrong. Withouth the USA's involvement in WWII, we most likely would be under Nazi rule today - a very Saddam like existence. However, the involvement in WWII was AFTER the Japanese initiated action against the USA and AFTER the Nazis started to attack USA ships. There was a cause and effect. Now, the USA skips the cause and goes to the effect.

  Today, the USA is a stench to many Countries in the free world. For USA residents, the return to McCarthy 1950s era withdrawal of basic freedom rights is already in place. I am for the first time in my life scared to be living here.

  Perhaps this will be the end of the USA as a major world power. Perhaps the European Union will supplant it. Maybe I've just got a dramatic viewpoint due to my fears and uncertainties of the current state of world affairs.

  John W. Wirtanen
• 

  Jayson

  "Patriotism is based on an accurate appraisal of our country and our relationship to it. Patriotism is not a blind love of country. It involves an appreciation for what the country has done for us, but also an evaluation of the *justice of its policies.

  There is room for a certain degree of loyalty to my country simply because it is my own, just as I should be loyal to my family, school, or town. But I must balance this with the realization that other people have the same loyalty to there country, family, school, or town. Since we all have received benefits from these institutions, we really do have an obligation to *respect, protect, and nurture them. But this obligation should not blind us to defects in our institutions and our awareness of our obligations to correct them.

  The Romans thought that the most noble thing that we could do is die for our country. In the twentieth century, it is clear that patriotism helped defeat unjust aggression. Unless some people had been willing to fight for family, *community, and country, the world would be a very different place today. Still, it is essential that patriotism be linked to a just cause. True love of country means devotion to its * moral improvements as well as to its preservation."

  Montague Brown Ph.D

  In order to have a true debate over a concept as important and complex as "patriotism" we need to have a clear understanding what it is and what it is not. Patriotism is not Nationalism. Often these two concepts are confused as the same thing. They are not. More often than not, the differences go unexposed due to ignorance or malice.

  "Nationalism goes beyond an accurate appraisal of our country and our relation to it. It is blind love of country. It may involve appreciating the *good our country has done for us, but it does not include an evaluation of the *justice of its policies.

  In nationalism my loyalty to my country is overplayed, and I fail to keep in mind that other people have similar loyalties to their countries. To be loyal to my country is good, but it is arbitrary and indefensible to think that, just because my country is my own, it is in truth better than all other countries. Nationalism ignores the obligation to evaluate carefully the defects of our country and to work tirelessly to correct them. Instead of working to make my country better, nationalism declares it to be the best.

  The twentieth century was filled with examples of the dangers of nationalism. First and foremost is the example of Hitler and Nazi Germany. Rampant German nationalism led to the atrocities of the holocaust and the attempt to subject Europe to German rule. Another example is the extreme nationalism of the Japanise, which prompted their attempt to dominate the East. More recently, Saddam Hussein in Iraq has encouraged nationalism as a way of fortifying his power."

  Montague Brown Ph.D

  Why are Americans so patriotic? Because, we have much worth protecting, We have much to be proud of. But what makes America different from other Nation-States?

  "Ours is an union, not of individuals, united by what is called a social compact, for that would make it a nation: nor of Governments, for that would have formed a mere confederacy, like the one superseded by the present Constitution; but an union of States, founded on a written, positive compact, forming a Federal Republic, with the same equality of rights among the citizens composing the States themselves."
  
  John Calhoun

  America is not the only great nation on earth. But, it is a great nation made of great people. That is a sense of pride for so many countrymen in America. And rightly so. A better question is: Are those who see America as the great satan, are they pathologically jealous? They complain of Israel, and they complain of the USA. But they never seem to complain about their own governments atrocities against their own countrymen. Are they pathologically jealous?

  By Jayson Aka iwasyoungonce
• 

  Prisca

  On page one of this thread, Simon said:

  I think the response to this topic about patriotism illustrates the point: immediately we see aggresive defense of the country and insults towards the person with no thought to challenge any of the actual points or answering whether they are valid or not.

  I would remind everyone who wants to use the forum that personal insults are not allowed and if they continue they will be removed. If anyone disagrees with something then debate the topic.

  This is a question / comparison about patriotism and how markeldy different it is in America compared to the rest of the world. If you don't think it is, say so and say why. If you think it is then it is valid to say so and say why.

  I am getting quite tired of the constant whining of "America bashing" whenever any post that is critical of America is made. It really is a lame excuse for not addressing the topic and issues raised. If you do not wish to address them, fine ... just skip the topic.

  This has the potential to be an interesting and informative topic but we can already see attempts to drag it down.

  I agree entirely. I was giving my opinion on how American patriotism comes across to non-Americans.

  However, I was not trying to "stir things up". An opinion was asked, and given. I raised questions as to why Americans are so overly-patriotic. Immediately that was seen as "America-bashing". Yes, it was critical, but I was also giving perspectives from my point of view.

  For goodness sakes, we are all adults here. If you can't take a bit of criticism here and there on an internet discussion board, then I wonder how you deal with it in real life?

  Comment on generalisations: How come it's ok to generalise about JWs, elders, elders kids, Christians, people who believe the Bible and/or God, anti-war supporters, pro-war supporters etc, but it's not ok to make generalisations about Americans? Food for thought.
• 

  xenawarrior

  I agree entirely. I was giving my opinion on how American patriotism comes across to non-Americans.

  However, I was not trying to "stir things up". An opinion was asked, and given. I raised questions as to why Americans are so overly-patriotic. Immediately that was seen as "America-bashing". Yes, it was critical, but I was also giving perspectives from my point of view.

  For goodness sakes, we are all adults here. If you can't take a bit of criticism here and there on an internet discussion board, then I wonder how you deal with it in real life?

  Prisca: hmmmmm- It seems that I was then giving my opinion of how your opinion came across to Americans. As did others, I might add. And then, funny- what was your response to that? "aggresive defense of the country your opinion and insults towards the person with no thought to challenge any of the actual points or answering whether they are valid or not. " I challenged your position and the actual "points" you made. And for goodness sakes, if you can't take a bit of criticism about your opinion on an internet discussion board, then I wonder how you deal with it in real life? The point is that it works both ways. It's called restraint and respect. You were responding to a thread about Americans and you didn't care if you might offend some of them with what you considered "critical" words. You may actually feel the way you stated and you have every right to. But there is something called TACT and if you choose not to use it when posting your "opinion" in all of it's nastiness then anything said to you as a result is your just desserts, no? Maybe instead of expecting people not to be offended by your words- you might want to consider having the prudence to write things in a way that won't offend in the first place. It isn't that difficult- most folks here do it quite easily and consistently. XW