US Patriotism VS the Rest of the World

by Xena 107 Replies latest jw friends

  • Realist


    when i think about disney music its always the little mermaid song that comes to mind ...under the sea..lalala

  • BeautifulGarbage
    You really think that as a whole we are that way? I would have defined it as a smaller portion....I would say from my perspective that only about 1/4 of Americans are this way....I mean obnoxious with it...I would put as a people who are patriotic in moderation at the majority level. Course it depends to on how you define obnoxious patriotism..I mean for some it is just saying you support the war...for others it takes a bit more...

    I wondered if someone was going to nail me on that sentence. I was almost going to edit it to read "a bit obnoxious," but figured "What the hell, live dangerously."

    Yes,I find it obnoxious that Americans, as a population, a general voice, can declare this is the "greatest" country in the world, but then can't be bothered to participate in the political process that is supposed to make it so great in the first place. And then to boot, want to spread it around to the rest of the world, and expect them to be thrilled about it and to flock to the voting booth. Americans need to "walk the walk" as well as "talk the talk."

    I find it sad that many Americans, when asked, cannot name their congressperson, governor, or senator. They would rather spend their time finding out who Joe Millionaire is going to pick, or who is going to be voted off "fill in the blank" TV show.

    Even though some believe that California, especially the southern part, is in itself a foreign country, I am pure American (Though I came dangerously close to being a Canadian; Grandpa, breaking from his Russian family, decided instead to immigrate to the US) and only criticize when I think it's warranted and true. However, I do love this place, inspite of it's blemishes. And, I defend it when I think it has been condemned unfairly.

    I only want what is best for it, and us, in the long term. We tend to be so short sighted as a nation.

    I have always had a deep appreciation of certain characteristics of other cultures. I also am repulsed by others and will not hesitate to deliver harsh criticism if it's needed. Still, I want to know about them and think I am a more open-minded person because of it.

    Good thread, Xena.


    Caught this after I wrote my post.

    If someone had said "many women named Diane are pushy and snotty" lol I would have attempted to correct their thinking

    Nah! Not Diane. Just those of us whose names are similiar to Diane and get called Diane anyway. After years of that, what do you expect?
  • Jayson
    hhhmm didn't even consider throwing nationalism into the just automatically assumes being a patriot makes one a nationalisitic don't they? But when you sit down and think about it, perhaps not...I consider myself to be patriotic to a certain degree, but not nationalistic...I don't consider my nation the best (well perhaps just best for me at this moment, but not best overall)and I am not blind to it's faults. I think that might be a thread all it's own though!

    I agree Xena the differences are so vast that each could have a thread of their own. My point is that many people can't distinguish between the two.


    I consider a lot of what people label "patriotism" as misplaced "nationalism" and people are being taken advantage of.

    Exactly Simon I agree. Anyone who says that being a nationalist is being a patriot is either ignorant or acting with malice

    I think you are right on.

    So, I think we can all agree that there is nothing wrong with patriotism. I think we can also agree that nationalism and jingoism (which was termed to describe excessive patriotism in England) are quite probably bad things.

    I have been reading a book "World on Fire" by Amy Chua and it is very interesting about American hatred by people of other countries. She makes the claim that it is not American military or arrogance that causes the hatred of American and Americans instead it is the export of raw laissez-faire capitalism and democracy that causes the attitude. These are types of capitalism and democracy that are not part of America but we promote it thought the world. (This is an anti-America, anti-capitalism, anti-WTO book. But that does not make it all wrong.) So far it has been quite interesting to read.

    I will say that any American who tells a person of another country that "Mine is the only great country in all of civilization" is wrong. To say that America is the greatest country ever; that is a debate I don't care to have, it is a matter of opinion. The same goes for the other direction. When I get into discussions of what is the best, or who's is the best way and, then it turns to "mine" is the only way, I bring this man's words into the forum:

    "Do not attach yourself to any particular creed exclusively. So that you may disbelieve the rest; otherwise you will loose much good, nay, you will fail to recognize the real truth of the matter. God, the omnipresent and omnipotent, is not limited by any one creed, for he says, "Wheresoever ye turn, there is the face of al-lah.
    Everyone praises what he believes; his god is his creature, and in praising it he praises himself. Consequently he blames the beliefs of others, which he would not do if he were just, but his dislikes is based on ignorance." (Ibn-al-Arabi 12th century AD)

    I think this was/is a wise man. When I comes to America, people are going to have to accept that I love my country. I love that I can work to change it or stand against it or support it. But, those disagreements have limits to keep order. I respect that as well. I do not consider those who work for/enforce for the powers that be here ["henchmen"] (Simon) or, anti-free speech, despite the outcry of some factions. I do not believe in trampling the right of peaceful protests. It is a coveted American Right. I also know that if I was born in the Middle East I would love that culture because I was born there. The same for Europe or Australia. That is the strength and beauty of accepting what ethnocentricism is; the love of what you love. And when you combine that with the exploration of what others love it is an enlightening adventure. When you close your mind to everything that does not fit into your little view how of things ought to be you loose much good, nay you miss the whole point of life.

  • crownboy

    It's certainly true that many Americans get very jingoist about their so called "patriotism", but as others have pointed out, most Americans aren't like that.

    I think the international community supposes that Americans are over-patriotic because of the massive support for the Iraqi war. True, the Bush administration unintentionaly tried their darndest to make us look like bufoons in the international community, and the Fox News channel is America's highest rated cable "news" network despite the network never pretending to ever be an objective news source, however, the overall support for the war has little to do with silly nationalism.

    The US support for the war is pretty simple; most US people believe that Saddam Hussein either had a direct link to the 9/11 attacks, or that Saddam Hussein has a large stokepile of WMD that could be used against the US, or was dangerously close to it. An even smaller minority believes that liberating Iraq is a great idea all in itself. So while most may not vote to re-elect Bush, or most may be well feel that Bush will exploit Iraqi resources after the war, the very fact that the security of US citizens was believed to be at risk, was itself the sole or primary reason for supporting the war (if this premise were indeed proven/ strongly hinted at with good evidence, I too would have supported the war and not be a "Bushman" as well.).

    The protest against anti war protest is due to other factors, IMO. In the US, people on the far right tend to demonize people of the center left (most Democrats), left (some Democrats) or far left position (green party,etc.), as being "unAmerican" in general, anyway. So this disposition is simply a continuation of a rather insidious habit that was already there. Since virtually all radio, and now increasinly more TV is controlled by right to far right ideologes, this idea can gain easy access through that outlet, and with most Americans accepting that Iraq really is a threat to US security, people will necessarily be a little pissed at anti war people who appear to not care about the country's national security.

    What I find kind of ironic is that my hometown of NYC, the city most affected by 9/11, is one of the more anti- war cities in America. The city council passed a resolution condemning Pres. Bush's war without much fanfare, and even in the midst of war, less than 50% of New Yorkers supported the war (at least in NYC). So I haven't had to hear too much pro war dogma locally, but I've certainly come across a few people of that bent, nontheless.

  • blacksheep

    Esp to "Prisca"---FTR i have lived in other european countries. I found them all to thing they were superior to everybody. They criticized other countries, and were more intent upon proving how they were superior to the other countries than I have ever seen over here. At least we make some effort to be politically correct.

    I high-tailed it back to the US as soon as I could. You cannot beat the lifestyle here. And a lot of Europeans know it. And also people from other countries. That's why they are clamoring to live over here.

    We ARE world leaders. We take risks. People like to criticize us for everything we do. I believe it's in part because they are jealous. They can sit back and criticize, but they ARE just sitting back on their butts and criticizing.

    Bottom line, I've seen far more "patriotism" in other parts of the world. Because we are a melting pot, we attract lots of people from other countries. And we welcome criticisms. Hard for some people to process.

  • D8TA

    As to "American Patriotism", I can only express what my personal views are of U.S. patriotism.

    Am I a patriot? Yes. One of the U.S.'s finest.

    Oh lookie, look at the red flags going up in some of your minds. D8TA? A PATRIOT???? NO HE ISN'T!

    That's the problem, right there, with "American Patriotism". Those with the the thought in mind that I am not a patriot. The current climate of Amerian Patriotism isn't inclusive to people like me. The "free-thinker". The one who recognizes there are more "domestic enemies" than "foreign".

    To me, patriotism is constant vigilance over the system of government in which everybody is apart of. Not hanging flags, nor making grand speeches about supporting troops in foreign operations, or hanging yellow ribbons in one’s hair. Patriotism to me, is that one understands that there are people in this world (or the U.S.) that know how a system works and will use the vilest means to exploit it. Even at the expense of people’s rights, freedoms and lives. That you become actively involved with the system…that the system was DESIGNED FOR THE CITIZEN TO BE INVOLVED WITH BEYOND THE BALLOT BOX.

    My life, the one outside of being a JW….has never been revealed upon these boards….for these boards are about JW’s and Ex-JW’s….it’s not “let’s share our personal life board”. I’m a private person, and I enjoy that right to keeping my business as MY business. There are a few here who KNOW who I am and KNOW what I’ve done in my life. So before some of you go slamming me, about not knowing what “this or that may be”….all I have to say is, I’ve got plenty of aces of my sleeve….and I love to use them when necessary. I do drop hints from time to time though, and some understand.

    Now, as to the general populace of America….yes, you people are ignorant as to the extent of corruption the U.S.A. has, and the effect of such corruption that extends it’s hand and stretches over this globe. Your reach is far and powerful and it does touch (and takes) many lives on this planet.

    Did I say, “YOUR”? Yes, I did.


    Because, I…like the rest of the world…. recognizes that YOUR country is a Republic with democratic practices. That YOU Americans VOTE for your government officials and are APART of the political process. Therefore, if such “corruption” exists from such voted officials, it’s the American CITIZEN’S responsibility to correct the problem.

    But the majority of you don’t. No…. you don’t.

    You know who is out trying to “fix” corruption? Those people you see on the news that are involved with there public political system. Those people you see with signs and organizations that are in constant battle to keep certain processes, rights, and freedoms alive. The ones you call “nuts” and “anti-American”…. the ones you criticize for dressing or looking different from the status quo…. the ones you gawk and cast out from your social circles because they don’t sit at home, drink beer, have a Bar-b-Q and be “good little quiet Americans”.

    Soldiers? Yes I respect them. More than any of you could possibly know or imagine. Soldiers are for the foreign front…to keep liberty and freedom alive on the “foreign” front. But there are enemies that reside within your borders that are more cruel and dangerous than any terrorist or Genocidal Dictators…there are more of those enemies posing many fronts on your very own soil…. and they are the ones that are tearing the U.S. down. Even to the point of exploiting the purpose of our military.

    Patriotism…. maybe the rest of the world doesn’t have a problem with American Patriotism…. perhaps it’s because of the lack of it, or how misguided it is.

    As to having a problem with America? I can see why, and I’ve “lived” why.

    The rest of the world isn’t stupid. They don’t take your, “well I voted and now I can have a beer and watch the NHL/NBA/NFL/MLB because I served my country in this or that war” as an excuse as to your “ignorance”. The rest of world does know that YOU, John/Jane Q. America, ARE apart of your political process and system….therefore YOU are accountable for the decisions that AFFECT FOREIGN COUNTRIES!

    No, you Americans like to…YES YOU DO…like to tout your so-called patriotism. Here comes the misunderstanding…. the rest of the world is now thinking, “hey…what the hell? You are fucking me in the ass and gloating????”

    I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, “Wake the HELL UP AMERICA (YOU-COMMON CITIZEN), and take accountability for YOUR government which is; for, from, and by the People”. Start getting involved while you can…start looking to make changes while you can…start recognizing the corruption that's infected the greatest idea (country) on this planet…because the rest of the world that is being affected by your policies and influence is not going to sit around and get it in the ass. And ignorance and laziness as to the process of your government is no excuse when it comes to issues of Imperialism, Corporate Globalism, and Tyranny.

    * loads the Jump Program *


  • scotsman

    OK, I've waded through the whole thread...

    Abaddon's Mirrian-Webster definition of patriotism is interesting when compared to Chambers of patriot:

    one who truly, though sometimes injudiciously, loves and serves his fatherland

    American patriotism is strongly expressed by some but if any of you have spent any time with Greeks you will know they express their patriotism vehemently. They describe Greece as better than all other counties but to each other complain bitterly about much of contemporary Greek culture. American culture has so successfuly colonised the rest of the world, for better or worse, which must contribute to the perception of American patriotlism as intolerably arrogant. Greek patriotism is only seen within Greece, American patriotism is seen everywhere.

    It's similar to the enmity that some Scots feel toward the English. Neither is superior but the economic, militaristic (and sporting!) supremacy of England as a nation irks those Scots with an injudicious love of their country.

    What does make American patriotism different is their sensitivity towards criticism. Scots generally agree with what others would criticise about us but then maybe we took to heart the words of Burns after all and we do have the gift to see ourselves as others see us.

  • Simon

    Very eloquent and well put D8TA

    It's similar to the enmity that some Scots feel toward the English. Neither is superior but the economic, militaristic (and sporting!) supremacy of England as a nation irks those Scots with an injudicious love of their country.

    I must apologise on behalf of England for any attitude of superiority shown re: sport (esp. Rugby). It's very difficult to control as a result of being so much better and consistently wupping you

    But let's forget about our differences and unite against a common enemy ... "wooden spoon" Wales !

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