No Bible = No God?

by menrov 113 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Lost in the fog
    Lost in the fog

    ie the Ten Commandments.

    "Thou shalt not kill." It was unacceptable to kill someone from your own tribe, but it was perfectly acceptable to brutally slaughter every Philistine or Canaanite you came into contact with because your god had told you to do it.

    As a book it does very little to draw me to a loving Deity. Quite the opposite in fact.

  • jwleaks
    stan livedeath - i regard the bible as a sort of instruction manual for some long defunct piece of useless machinery.

    Russian Guide To Babushka-Pulled Ploughs by Lenin.

  • Anders Andersen
    Anders Andersen


    Would you still believe in a creator?
    I would.

    I'm wondering if you are really able to set aside your Bible-induced preconceptions about this topic?

    What kind of creator would you believe in?

    A Yahweh-type of creator: one spiritual all powerful, all knowing being that is separate from creation, minus the Bible myths about his actions interaction with humans?

    Or a creator deity as part of a pantheon of multiple or many deities?

    Or would it be that creator and creation are one: the creator is creation and the creation is the creator?

    Or would it be a race of other-dimensional aliens who simply created our universe in a lab?

    There are many ideas out there about creator deities. I wonder if you simply stick to the idea your most familiar with?

  • menrov

    @Anders Anderson

    I believe there is a creator, as I think that design of a living thing is too complex to just have started. But I have serious doubts about the concept of god as described in the various scriptures. My view is that the creator just created what we have and it is up to humans to make it a success (or not). The creator is not monitoring or guiding the affairs on earth. If he does, why allow so much suffering and sorrow at all stages in life, if you have the power to change it. If a normal, righteous human would remove all evil from those he loves, you could at least expect the same from a creator who is supposed to love his creation.

    It is not a criticism. I am not challenging a creator but challenging the concept of a God who love his creations as described in the scriptures.

    What is means for our future? I have no idea. May be one day the creator will focus his attention on us. Until then, it is up to us humans to live a life that is enjoyable. Hoping you do not get seriously sick or involved in a war or a serious accident etc.

    Are there beneficial things in the bible? Yes, but discernment is needed as it is written by men from a certain culture and region.

    I hope I explained myself a bit....

  • fukitol

    Before the Bible was written or any other ancient 'holy book', what did people worship?

    Mostly the sun. The sun gives us light, warmth, it moves in the sky, its visible, etc.

    Makes a lot more sense to worship the sun as our creator than any God of ancient scripture who can't be seen, doesn't communicate, doesn't intervene, doesn't do anything, just appears in a lot of ancient crazy stories.

  • cofty
    Would you still believe in a creator? I would. - Menrov

    Why would you believe in a creator? The complexity and diversity of life is explained by evolution.

    The wastefulness and cruelty of life argues strongly against a designer.

  • Fred Franztone
    Fred Franztone
    I believe there is a creator, as I think that design of a living thing is too complex to just have started.

    Google the following: god of the gaps, argument from ignorance, logical fallacies, the watchmaker argument, abiogenesis, evolution, how complexity arises, and the scientific method

    Then we'll talk

  • Anders Andersen
    Anders Andersen


    Fair enough. Works for me :-)

    I believe there is a creator, as I think that design of a living thing is too complex to just have started.

    This used to be my reasoning as well. Right until I realized that this creator would be 'living thing' having a 'too complex design' it/him/her/themself/ves.

    To me it appears to be a reductio ad absurdum: life is too complex to come into existence by itself or from non-living matter (or non-living non-material 'things'), thus it needs a (living) creator. This creator is a form of also needs a creator....and so on and so on ad infinitum.

    Or we must conclude the premise "life is too complex to come into existence by itself" is incorrect to start with?

    Applying it to all forms of life except the creator would be special pleading.

    Well, each person has their own thoughts about all that. As long as we're kind to each other I don't care :-D

  • I believe in overlapping
    I believe in overlapping

    menrov said;

    I believe there is a creator, as I think that design of a living thing is too complex to just have started. But I have serious doubts about the concept of god as described in the various scriptures.

    It’s possible there was a creator. The question is, if there was, then why did he create everything? What purpose did creation serve?

    Is it possible that a creator, created everything, just because “HE COULD”? No purpose whatsoever?

    If you’ve seen the movie Prometheus, an AI Robot that was created by humans was asking a human why they wanted to meet their creators. The reply was, “To meet our makers, get answers, ask why they made us in the first place”

    The AI Robot asked the human; “Why did you people make me?”

    The Human replied; “Because we could”

    The AI Robot replied; “Can you imagine how disappointing it would be for you, to hear the same thing from your Creator?”

    Think about reality, what we see with our eyes. The planet earth functions because the life on it is predatory. In order for life to exist, there is a food chain. Humans being on the very top, all the way down to the cell. Everything eats everything in order for life to survive. Do you enjoy a good steak, or how about some fried chicken. Then you are part of the food chain. Even if you decide to be a vegetarian, a lion will not care, and if you get in his way, you will be his dinner for the day.

    Think about what kind of Creator would deliberately design a Wasp that injects its eggs inside a caterpillar so that in a matter of days, the eggs hatch and then start eating the caterpillar from the inside out till eventually they eat their way out, but being careful not to kill the caterpillar as they burst themselves out. Once out, the caterpillar loses brain function and starts spinning a cocoon to protect the larva that breaks out of the caterpillar. There are literally hundreds of examples like this. And nowhere in the bible does it say animals are suffering as the result of man’s sin. It’s just the way they were “Designed”---or evolved.

    A wise, loving Creator could certainly do a better job in designing life without the necessary pain and suffering. Plants can grow and flourish with just soil, rain and sun.Why couldn't he design animals and humans without the pain and suffering?

    There is also another possibility that has to be considered if a person wants to believe in a Creator. That being that the Creator died. He was not eternal like we have been led to believe. And thus we are on our own. That would be another explanation why he has not interfered in human activities and stopped all the suffering.

    Perhaps if there was a Creator or Creators, that lived, they created successively. One dying and another replacing and finishing the work of our local physical universe.

    For example think about how many times humans started a project like the Golden Gate Bridge. The original planners and creators could easily die and another group could take over and finish the project. Perhaps something like that happened.

    It is said that in another 100 years humans will finally create life. Either Artificial machine or organic. We are already in the process of building or growing body organs. Many of the ones that started in this endeavor have died, but the project continues and new scientist and doctors pick up where the last left off.

    If we do create life, what would be the purpose—TO BE WORSHIPED---I doubt it. The reason would be simple;


    So it is possible that we were created by someone or the process was started by something and they died. Then another group took over and either lost interest and started another project in another part of the universe or the project continues. We personally will probably never know.

    And as hard as it is to imagine, it’s possible that all creation was created for the simple reason that;


  • I believe in overlapping
    I believe in overlapping


    Here is a quick view of the wasp that was either designed by a Creator or just evolved, take your pick.

    Or how about these animals who kill for fun, were they designed by a Creator to act this way, or did they turn bad because of "SIN?" Or is there another reason?

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