Poll: Do you trust Israel ? ? ? ?

by Iron Eagle 84 Replies latest social current

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Realist:

    "but his buddies want to make money with iraqi oil. they have been excluded from the iraqi oil buisness until now and they want to change that. if US oil companies do not take over the oil production in iraq once the war is over than i will apologize and reconsider the situation....until than i am convinced bush wants the oil for his buddies and gives a shit about the US of A.""

    Just unfounded rubbish, your logic is mind blowing....the facts and issues to why your claim if false has been laid out here many times......

    ""Even a perfunctory acquaintance with the realities of the global oil market would indicate that the "oil war" theory does not stand up to analysis. ""

    So true!

    SS:

    I never made the claim that Israel is perfect, if what you state is true. I will do the research. If it is true, I would go after the government or persons who authorised this, not the people as a state or the issue of existing as a people.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    SS: Another viewpoint:

    By Emanuel A. Winston: A Middle East Analyst and Commentator

    Whenever the Arabists within the U.S. government wish Israel to comply with Administration plans, there is a sudden media hype against Israel. The ritual is always the same, with certain news channels leading the pack.

    According to The New York Time (Monday, February 24), on Sunday afternoon, an unidentified gunman began shooting a pistol on the observation deck of the Empire State Building, wounding seven and killing one man. He then shot himself in the head. To spice up the story, The New York Times said that authorities believed he was from the Middle East and could be Israeli, Palestinian or Egyptian. Monday night CNN already had Mayor Giulani reporting that his passport showed he was a Palestinian who entered the U.S. December 24, 1996 and that he shouted: “Are you from Egypt?”

    Before he started shooting Tuesday morning, CNN reported that he was identified from documents in his pockets including a Palestinian passport as Ali Abu Kamal. There was a note in his pocket, indicating that he hated America, Israel, England and France. The New York Times, in its next day’s edition, attempted to give it a soft spin, indicating his attack was not politically motivated. He was from Ramallah, a town under the Palestinian Authority.

    Always count on The New York Times to find a way to blame Israel on the front page with no front page apology to follow. Since the man was clearly a Palestinian Arab from the documents in his pockets, would blaming Israel first blur the fact that once again an Arab had hit against America? The leading indicator of an American government push against Israel is to put into print, usually through their flagship journal, the NY Times, an unfounded accusation against Israel disguised as NY Times speculative reportage.

    The reason this is a convincing “indicator” is because of another incident immediately prior. The FBI discovers a low-level engineer in a Flint, Michigan tank factory who was supposed to have passed classified information to Israel on tanks and Patriot missiles. Strange that Israel would bother with tank technology since Israel’s technological base on tank and tank warfare is superior to the United States!

    In fact, the Merkava, Israel’s originally designed tank, is a far better and more reliable tank than America’s own Abrams, with which the U.S. has had enormous problems. As I recall, Israeli engineers were brought to the U.S. to help fix the Abrams fuel guzzling problems, its turbine engine which sucked up prodigious amounts of sand, and its need for frequent repairs reducing its operational tank hours.

    As for the Patriot missile system, the U.S. had already provided Israel with the Patriot during the Gulf War where it proved to be a lemon. Long before the Gulf War, Israel had turned down this weapons system because it was a dud. During Desert Storm, Israel took 39 direct hits by Saddam Hussein’s Scud missiles, with the Patriot failing entirely to hit the incoming Scuds, and managing to blow them up directly overhead, so the warheads dropped into the Israeli cities together with the Patriot missile debris.

    The Saudis suffered from the same poor performance of the Patriots, and so the American soldiers were vulnerable. One Iraqi Scud killed over 25 American soldiers from Pennsylvania stationed in Saudi Arabia. That’s when President Bush stopped the winning American team before victory was achieved, leaving Saddam Hussein in power.

    No, Israel did not need to steal technology for this system. But a good spy story is always useful for pressuring Israel into more suicidal concessions as dreamed up by the American Arabists in Washington who are firmly linked to the teats of Arab oil and Arab countries’ wishes.

    The concessions Israel is being manipulated into making effectively give the terrorist nation of Syria (so labeled by the U.S. government) the high ground of the Golan Heights right on down to the sea of Galilee. Syria’s promoters, including Messrs. Bush, Baker and now Clinton, wish to bend Israel on the issue. The method of choice is to portray Israel to the American people and Congress as a “non-friend.” To accomplish this duplicity, they need front page accusations in The New York Times or booming out from CNN with a “tsk, tsk” expression on the faces of their news announcers.

    All this has played before. The spectacular accusation, the front page story, Israel bends to this pressure; then the courts disprove the original accusation but the news conduits tied to the Administration and State Department, by their “leak and exclusive interview” trick, do not print a front page retraction.

    Who can forget when in 1985 the FBI showed up at the Recon Optical factory in Barrington, Illinois with a TV film crew to accuse Israel of stealing technology for night vision equipment? The story, as it unfolded in court, was that Israel had openly contracted with this factory to develop night vision equipment. After Israel paid for the development work, the factory refused to deliver the technology and also refused to refund the money.

    It is significant that Israel was, as usual, being pressed to comply with Arabist State Department plans to appease their Arab oil friends. The media went along with the front page exposé, but resorted to silence when the charges were thrown out of court.

    Two other manipulated two news stories for the gullible that year again accused Israel of stealing American technology for cluster bombs and chroming of tank barrels. When it was revealed that tank companies, Bofor in Sweden and Reinathal in Germany, already had this (secret) technology and were bidding to be the suppliers, the lie had already made the front pages.

    The fourth blockbuster of 1985 continues to this day. On November 21, 1995, Jonathan Pollard was arrested with full TV coverage. How often does the FBI or police invite TV cameras to witness their arrests? Pollard, a U.S. Navy counterintelligence analyst, had transferred to Israel vital information which Bobby Inman and Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger had withheld, such as:

    • Arab troop movements
    • data on Libyan air defenses
    • Soviet deliveries of military equipment to Arab client states
    • status of nuclear weapons development by Pakistan with funds from Arab states
    • location of Syrian and Iraqi poison gas factories and sources of that equipment in West Germany

    Pollard saw this information crucial to Israel’s survival marked NFFE (Not For Foreign Eyes), which he protested to his superiors. He was told: “Don’t tell the Israelis about gas factories; they’re too sensitive about gas.

    Because of Pollard’s information, Israel accelerated the development of civilian gas masks and baby anti-gas tents, enabling Israel to protect its citizens when President Bush and Sec. Baker forced Israel to absorb 39 Scuds.

    On January 16, 1991 at 3:59 a.m. during the first Iraqi missile assault on Israel, Caspar Weinberger said in an interview on Israeli radio: “It’s a shame that Israel has to suffer a poison nerve gas attack.” Saddam never did send gas warheads on his scuds to Israel, but Weinberger knew that Saddam had them, and that Israel knew thanks to Pollard. Weinberger arranged for Pollard’s life sentence without parole.

    Aldridge Ames accused Pollard of being responsible for the deaths of scores of American agents in the Soviet Union. Even after Ames confessed that he was the traitor who caused their deaths, Pollard is still in jail - now in his 12th year - longer than any other American jailed for the same offence.

    Clearly, the intelligence community cannot admit a mistake and continues to influence President Clinton not to issue a commutation of Jonathan Pollard’s sentence.

    So, when we see the media manipulation hot at work again, accusing Israel in many minor and major stories, we know it presages major American pressure for Israeli concessions. Watch it work!

  • Iron Eagle
    Iron Eagle

    Pleasuredome:

    dubla knows what he saw. the fbi cliams its genuine, so it has to be that, genuine

    hahahahaha hahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahaha ahaahhaha !!!!

    Alrighty then ...

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    SS:

    Is this what you are talking about?

    1953:

    March - Americans Julius and Ethel Rosenberg executed in electric chair after being found guilty of stealing U.S. nuclear secrets and passing them to Soviet Union.

  • seawolf
    seawolf

    At his trial, Israeli Spy Jonathan Pollard was called "the greatest traitor in the history of the United States" (Gordon Thomas, Seeds of Fire, p.31-32). In the words of CIA Director George Tenet, Pollard, an American Jew, stole "every worthwhile intelligence secret we have." In the year prior to his arrest in Nov. 1986, Pollard transmitted "over 360 cubic feet of top secret paper to Israel," his trial was told.

    The answer to your question would be NO.

  • dubla
    dubla
    dubla knows what he saw. the fbi cliams its genuine, so it has to be that, genuine

    no, no, no, you guys have got it all wrong. you see, i believe nothing that comes from the fbi is genuine, and i believe almost all media sources produce nothing other than blatant lies. in fact, i believe the only true source of any real information comes from conspiracy theory websites, and everything else it patently false. i dont sound like im under mind control, or overly paranoid, do i?

    aa

  • ThiChi
  • Jonathan Pollard was a civilian American Naval intelligence analyst. In the mid 1980's (circa 1983-1984), Pollard discovered that information vital to Israel's security was being deliberately withheld by certain elements within the U.S. national security establishment.

  • Israel was legally entitled to this vital security information according to a 1983 Memorandum of Understanding between the two countries.

  • The information being withheld from Israel included Syrian, Iraqi, Libyan and Iranian nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare capabilities - being developed for use against Israel. It also included information on ballistic missile development by these countries and information on planned terrorist attacks against Israeli civilian targets.

  • When Pollard discovered this suppression of information and asked his superiors about it, he was told to "mind his own business", and that "Jews get nervous talking about poison gas; they don't need to know."

    He also learned that the objective of cutting off the flow of information to Israel was to severely curtail Israel's ability to act independently in defense of her own interests.

  • Pollard was painfully aware that Israeli lives were being put in jeopardy as a result of this undeclared intelligence embargo. He did everything he possibly could to stop this covert policy and to have the legal flow of information to Israel restored. When his efforts met no success, he began to give the information to Israel directly.

  • Jonathan Pollard was an ideologue, not a mercenary. The FBI concluded after nine months of polygraphing that Pollard acted for ideological reasons only, not for profit. This fact was recognized by the sentencing judge who declined to fine Pollard. (See the addendum for further details.)

    Furthermore, on May 12, 1998, Israel formally acknowledged Jonathan Pollard had been a bona fide Israeli agent. This fact wiped out any remaining doubt about Jonathan Pollard's motives. Being an official agent is, by definition, the polar opposite of being a mercenary.

  • In 1985, his actions were discovered by the U.S. government. His instructions from Israel were to seek refuge in the Israeli embassy in Washington. When Pollard and his former wife sought refuge there, they were at first received and then summarily thrown out into the waiting arms of the FBI.
  • Jonathan Pollard never had a trial. At the request of both the U.S. and Israeli governments, he entered into a plea agreement, which spared both governments a long, difficult, expensive and potentially embarrassing trial.

  • Jonathan Pollard fulfilled his end of the plea agreement, cooperating fully with the prosecution.

  • Nevertheless, Pollard received a life sentence and a recommendation that he never be paroled - in complete violation of the plea agreement he had reached with the government.

  • Jonathan Pollard was never indicted for harming the United States.

  • Jonathan Pollard was never indicted for compromising codes, agents, or war plans.

  • Jonathan Pollard was never charged with treason. [Legally, treason is a charge that is only applicable when one spies for an enemy state in time of war.]

  • Jonathan Pollard was indicted on only one charge: one count of passing classified information to an ally, without intent to harm the United States.

  • Prior to sentencing, then-Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger delivered a 46-page classified memorandum to the sentencing judge. Since then, neither Pollard nor any of his cleared attorneys have ever been allowed to access the memorandum to challenge the false charges it contains-a clear violation of Pollard's constitutional rights.

    The day before sentencing, Weinberger delivered a four-page supplemental memorandum to the sentencing judge. In it, he falsely accused Pollard of treason. Also in the supplemental memorandum, Weinberger advocated a life sentence in clear violation of Pollard's plea agreement. The implication that follows from Weinberger's false characterization of Pollard's offense as "treason" is that the country Pollard served, Israel, is an enemy state.

  • Pollard was shown the supplemental Weinberger memorandum only once, just moments before sentencing - hardly adequate time to prepare an appropriate defense to rebut the false accusations in it.

  • No one else in the history of the United States has ever received a life sentence for passing classified information to an ally - only Jonathan Pollard. The median sentence for this offense is two to four years. Even agents who have committed far more serious offenses on behalf of hostile nations have not received such a harsh sentence.

  • Pollard's attorney never appealed from the life sentence. The time to file for such an appeal was within ten days of sentencing. Years later, with a different attorney, Pollard filed a habeas corpus challenge to the sentence.

    The Court of Appeals, in a two-to-one decision, rejected the challenge, largely on procedural grounds.

    The majority placed heavy emphasis on the failure to appeal from the life sentence in a timely manner, and on the resulting far heavier burden faced by Pollard in seeking to challenge the sentence via habeas corpus. [Note: "Habeas corpus" is a procedure by which an incarcerated person may bring a court challenge to the legality of his or her incarceration - often long after the underlying case has been concluded.]

    In a dissenting opinion, Court of Appeals Judge Stephen Williams called the case "a fundamental miscarriage of justice," and wrote that he would have ordered that Pollard's sentence be vacated.

  • In November 1995, Israel granted Jonathan Pollard Israeli citizenship. The official presentation took place in January of 1996. This publicly signaled to the U.S. Israel's willingness to accept full responsibility for Pollard.

  • U.S. government sources falsely accuse Pollard in the media of passing "rooms full of classified information" and "hundreds of thousands of documents" to Israel. This volume of information is an absurdity! Pollard would have needed to make numerous "drops" using a moving van to have transferred such a large volume of information. In actual fact, Jonathan Pollard made a grand total of eleven "drops" to the Israelis, using only a small briefcase to hold the documents.

  • The formula that the government used to exaggerate the volume of information that Pollard passed to Israel was: if only one page or a single sentence of a document was passed to the Israelis, it was counted as if the whole document had been transmitted. Even referenced documents and sources were counted as having been transmitted in toto. Using this calculation, a single page could be counted as 50 hard bound 500 page volumes!
  • seawolf
    seawolf

    Does this also include the nuclear secrets that were given to Israel and then suspected of being passed on to Russia?

    BTW, I don't think www.jonathanpollard.org would really be considered a bias-free website.

    Pollard caused enormous damage to U.S. national security. He gave Israel top-secret U.S. military intelligence and diplomatic codes; names of nearly 100 U.S. agents in the Mideast, who were then "turned" by Israel; NSA code-breaking techniques and targets; intercepts of foreign communications; and U.S. war-fighting plans for the Mideast.

    According to CIA sources, Pollard provided Israeli intelligence with names of important American agents inside the former Soviet Union and Russia who had supplied information on East Bloc weapons and war plans. How the agents' names were linked to the secrets they supplied - a major breach of basic intelligence security - remains a mystery.

    Some of the enormously sensitive secrets stolen by Pollard may have been either sold, or bartered, by Israel to the Soviet Union.

    A number of key CIA agents in the East Bloc were allegedly executed as a result of Pollard's spying. The KGB likely gained access to top-secret U.S. codes - either directly from Israel, or through spies in Israel's government. In short, Pollard's treachery caused one of the worst security disasters in modern U.S. history.

    (mirrored here: http://www.aci.net/kalliste/pollard_em.htm )

    "Mr. Pollard is a convicted spy who put our national security at risk and endangered the lives of our intelligence officers. There not terms strong enough to express my belief that Mr. Pollard should serve every minute of his sentence...." -Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL), chairman of the Senate's Select Committee on Intelligence

    Here is a very interesting article. It seems to be good in terms of being balanced why he's in there, damage he did, what happened in his trial (a lot being his and his wife's own doing), pros and cons of how the Jewish people feel about him, etc. http://www.miami.com/mld/jewishstartimes/3510466.htm

    BTW yes I read the entire article. two interesting parts I thought were:

    Virtually the entire U.S. intelligence and defense establishment, with CIA director George Tenet acting as point man, want Pollard to remain in jail forever. Few are as adamant about that as senior intelligence officers who happen to be Jewish. Numerous ranking members of Congress, including Sen. Joseph Lieberman, and a large number of American Jewry's top communal leaders do not object to Pollard remaining behind bars. What's more, some top Jewish professional leaders privately express revulsion at efforts to win Pollard's freedom.

    The other was:

    But all of this was dwarfed, according to a principal author of the Weinberger Declaration, by photocopying for Israel the massive 10-volume RASIN Manual. An acronym for Radio and Signal Intelligence [RASIN], the precious manual is known as ''the Bible,'' according to the intelligence officer. The RASIN Manual details America's global listening profile, frequency-by-frequency, source-by-source, geographic slice by geographic slice. RASIN was in effect, a complete roadmap to American signal intelligence. Informed sources say Pollard's RASIN Manual disclosure was the crux of a secret exchange in Judge Robinson's courtroom just moments before the outraged judge finally pronounced a life sentence. Some estimate the loss of the RASIN manual cost America billions of dollars and many years in completely restructuring America's worldwide eavesdropping operation. By any measure, though Pollard has sought to downplay the consequences to the U.S. of his actions, his crime was lasting and devastating to the U.S. intelligence community.

    I had no idea about the RASIN manual.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Tichi

    Yes, i was thinking about the rosenbergs.

    I may look at the pollard thing more. There seems to be some stuff missing there. For instance, your quote calls him an israeli agent yet they abandoned him. During the last few yrs, israel's position on him has changed. Hmm ...

    The selling of supercomputer/satelite info to china is referring to loral/schwartz ceo

    While it appears that lately, possibly since bush two's ascendency, pro israelism at the new york times has diminished somewhat, it's history bears some consideration. This from http://www.fpp.co.uk/BoD/origins/NYT_Frankel.html

    About a book by Max Frankel, who was with the New York Times from the early 1950s to 1994, eventually becoming its Executive Editor. The following quotations are from his memoirs, The Times of My Life. And my Life with The Times (Random House, New York, 1999).

    Punch Sulzberger unconsciously abetted this movement. He felt born to the publisher's chair and had none of his father's hang-ups about being Jewish. Israel's ambassadors to the United Nations lived just a few floors below his Fifth Avenue apartment and always enjoyed easy access to him and to his table at The Times. Within a few years of Punch's ascendancy, there came a time when not only the executive editor -- A. M. Rosenthal -- and I but ALL the top editors listed on the paper's masthead were Jews. Over vodka in the publisher's back room, this was occasionally mentioned an any impolitic condition, but it was altered only gradually, without any affirmative action on behalf of Christians." (pages 400-401)

    Because my name was Max and because I produced editorials that disapproved of some of the hawkish policies of Israel's prime minister, Menachem Begin, ... even modest criticism of Israeli actions inevitably provoked angry articles in Jewish weeklies, demands that I meet for remedial instruction with the heads of Jewish organizations, and a flood of angry letters, many condemning me as a 'self-hating Jew' who had abandoned his people to curry favor with the goyim. I was denounced as being ignorant of the Holocaust and indifferent to the damage done by disharmony among Jews. To the most sober of these assaults, I sometimes responded with a hurt biographical note, stressing my roots in the shtetl, our family's taste of both Nazi and Soviet anti-Semitism, the disappearance of my grandparents, my sojourn among relatives who had survived the death camps to settle gratefully in Israel, and my intimate familiarity with every liturgical variant of Jewish ritual. Mostly, however, I would simply retort that my only remaining Jewish friends were Israelis, to make the point that many Israelis also found fault with their government and also favored accommodation with the Palestinians, as they eventually proved in the Peace Now movement.

    I was much more deeply devoted to Israel than I dared to assert. I had yearned for a Jewish homeland ever since learning as child in Germany that in Palestine even the policemen were Jews! Like most American Jews, however, I settled on a remote brand of Zionism, which rejected all importuning to move to Israel to share its hardships and dangers." (page 401)

    Fortified by my knowledge of Israel and my friendships there, I myself wrote most of our Middle East commentaries. As more Arab than Jewish readers recognized, I wrote them from a pro-Israel perspective. And I wrote in confidence that The Times no longer suffered from any secret desire to deny or overcome its ethnic roots. (page 403)

    Note that, dispite frankel's pro israel biase, any negativity towards aspects of isreal would bring down accusations of anti israelism from jewish groups. I think this illustrates the nature of the anti israel accusations against the paper, for it has been in jewish hands since 1896, when adolph ochs, the grandfather of arther sulzberger jr bought it.

    SS

  • RandomTask
    RandomTask

    Come on, everybody knows that UBL was being and in fact continues to be played by Barbara Streisand

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