Edward Dunlap recording
I thought one of the points made by this Edward Dunlap ( http://www.consolidatedcap.com/media/dunlap.html)
character was particularly interesting. He said that he believed that Pual in the christian times believed that "faith alone was enough to garantee that you where saved." Well that is absoloutly rubbish. The apostle James said at Jas 2:17,18,21,22,26. "Faith if it does not have works is dead in itself. Nevertheless, a certain one will say: 'You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.' Was not Abraham our father declared rightous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? You behold that his faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected. Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."
So this Dunlap guy was basicaly saying that somewhere down the road in his dealings with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society he felt that he didnt have to make his faith assured by works but was instead already saved becuase "he was a good person in his heart." BLAH!! You cant get much farther from what the Witnesses have always believed, that you have to continualy "make your faith made manifest."
So this Dunlap guy was basicaly saying that somewhere down the road in his dealings with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society he felt that he didnt have to make his faith assured by works but was instead already saved becuase "he was a good person in his heart." BLAH!!
Do you have any idea what "this Dunlap guy" did while in the Tower? Ed Dunlap had more honesty in his little finger than all members of the Governing Body put together.
--JAVA...counting time at the Coffee Shop
I would be interested to know how you back that up. Seems to me that in numerous scriptures in the bible it talks about faith and works togather. How do you suppose he got around that and did it with all that honesty in his little finger?
Oh god, it looks like I have a Bible thumper here. You didn't answer my question, Geoff. Do you know the history of Ed Dunlap? If I get bored latter on I'll play scriptural gymnastics with you, but why waste a good weekend doing that? So the question remains; do you know the history of Ed Dunlap?
--JAVA...counting time at the Coffee Shop
Nope. But I did listen to that whole recording that he made and unless you can prove to me somehow, that faith alone is fine with God then why should I listen to, or take anything else he says seriously when he cant even get one of the most important truths about the bible right, that faith without works is dead.
so what do YOU believe? are works essential?
does Jehovah keep a record of your monthly
< one of the points made by "this" Edward Dunlap "character" was particularly interesting>
Please go to any SE and look up "logical fallicies faq's"
your "ad hominen" attack on Mr. Dunlap is typical JW thinking and arguementation.
i will support your right to disagree with him and also to attack every last bit of his position,
but not him as a person. When on shakey logical ground attack the person - not very
schorlarly (can't spell sorry) but the WT discourages logical reasoning.
< Well that is "absoloutly rubbish">
Please see thread on "without a doubt" I am embarrassed for you and your uninformed
debating, logic and reasoning skills. You have your hands full on this board which if
you had been truly reading and following should have alerted you to practice, practice
and, of course the real downer would be, intensive study on the printed facts. The
position "I believe, I believe" just does not carry any water here. Prove your points
professionally, scienticaly and with empathy for your fellow forum members.
Welcome to the board and looking forward to seeing your future growth. I am still
working on myself and I have a long way to go for sure.
(of the need a spell checker class) lol
Two questions. They're both pretty simple and both can be answered with a
simple yes or no.
I spent many years going from door to door and attending meetings. I was
raised in the truth. I don't go in service anymore (long story) because I
know that for one thing it isn't scriptural and two, it isn't necessary. I don't
go to the meetings, either, because I think there is very little real truth being
told and my Mama told me to love what is true more than 'the truth.'
Now, to put on a good front, to prove to the elders at the Hall that I was
spiritual, suppose I spent the next six months going out in service for 25
hours each month (more than any elder), even though I just told you I know
it isn't necessary. And I went to all the meetings and made comments at
each. Question: would my 'works' prove that I had faith?
Back when I was going to the meetings, there was an older sister at my
Hall. She never came to any of the meetings and she never went out in
service. She had been in the truth a long time and knew that, based on what
the Organization taught, she was supposed to do those 'works' and many
others to show that she had real faith. The problem was she was very sick
and since then she has died. Question: since she didn't have any works, does
that mean that she had no faith?
p.s. I agree with JAVA: do a little research on Sir Ed Dunlap. He was a
nobleman if there ever was one -- a true American hero.
unless you can prove to me somehow, that faith alone is fine with God then why should I listen...
Romans 3:28 "For we reckon that man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law" (NWT)
This is why Dunlap believed Paul thought faith alone was enough.
James may have said that works were important, but if you just look at the surrounding scripture you'll see that the works he is talking about are [i]physical[i] manifestations of humanitarian aid. Witnesses spend a lot of time on this passage but perhaps they should spend a little more time feeding and clothing people (not just fellow Witnesses after major disasters) doing the work James is talking about.
I don't really care if you think the preaching work is more important. If you're going to cite James as your authority, you should listen to what he says.
I feel just as Java, but will give you a second of my beautiful week-end. Try to understand this scripture. It is the Living Bible rendering and is not commented on by the WT pubs at all.
I have put aside all else, counting it worth less than nothing, in order that I can have Christ, 9 and become one with him, no longer counting on being saved by being good enough or by obeying God's laws, but by trusting Christ to save me; for God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith-counting on Christ alone.
You don’t have to get excited about James’ comments of proving Faith by works. These works are WORKS OF FAITH. Just like works of love, they cannot be legislated, obligated, extracted by guilt or they are no longer works of faith.
Just something to think about. BTW, lighten up on Dunlap. He earned more respect.