Geoff-What good works did the 'evil doer' perform?
You only need to give me one.
Terraly-great comment on James. I always ask do you
know in this great book about works that James wrote
he never ever mentions peaching at all. He even
discourages many from becoming teachers-cha-3 ver-1
Geoff take some time read that book your citing from
we hope to see you back real soon.
Edward Dunlap recording
Geoff-What good works did the 'evil doer' perform?
Excuse my ignorance but Who's Edward Dunlap? And what did he do?
"But it does move"
The late Edward Dunlap as a co-author of the first ever bible encyclopedia of the WTBTS, the _Aid to Bible Understanding_. Also, he was the author of the WTBTS very first biblical commentary, _Commentary on the Letter of James_. He was also as I recall, the registrar of the WTBTS Gilead missionary school where he also taught.
Dunlap served the WTBTS for many years but was given the boot for thoughtcrime that included the suggestion that perhaps the WTBTS was not totally correct in everything that it taught and also that it was possible to do productive bible study without having WTBTS literature involved at all times. Now, if he had kept this to himself as most JWs do, he wouldn't have gotten any attention. However, he shared his thoughts with a few close associates and so word got around in the Brooklyn rumor mill and shortly thereafter Dunlap was out the door.
It was a shameful and dishonorable deed by the WTBTS, but not their worst.
Ed Dunlap was the registrar of Gilead, and respected by many Witnesses. In the mid to late 1970s, Dunlap and others (e.g., Raymond Franz) started quietly questioning some of the Tower's teachings (e.g., 1914). After Franz was forced out of Bethel, the GB turned on many faithful workers, Dunlap was one of them. Of interest, Dunlap and R. Franz wrote extensively for the Society during their years at Bethel. Raymond Franz, and Ed Dunlap wrote the major portion of Aid to Bible Understanding. As a result of their research, the organizational makeup was changed because it didn't follow the example of the early church.
For more information about Dunlap, see Apocalypse Delayed, by James Penton, and Crisis of Conscience, by Raymond Franz. Franz writes at length about this time period on pages 223-88. Ed Dunlap died a year or so ago. Like Franz, Ed Dunlap was an honorable person who gave up a prestigious life in the Society because he questioned doctrines that made little sense.
PS: I just corrected my misspelling of James Penton. For whatever reason I keep adding the letter i to his last name.
--JAVA...counting time at the Coffee Shop
Your information about Dunlap is excellent. I didn't see yours until I posted. Next time I'll wait before struggling with the keyboard.
--JAVA...counting time at the Coffee Shop
then why should I listen to, or take anything else he says seriously when he cant even get one of the most important truths about the bible right
You shouldn't. You point refutes all else, blasts the whole reform/apostate movement out of the water, and validates everything about the WBTS. Stay in; stay an active witness. You've earned it.
Thanks for the info - Ive just orderd the book from Amazon today.
"But it does move"
Although i'm not a witness, i'm very glad to see some witnesses on the board. it really adds some variety to the trail mix. can't wait to hear more of your opinions and debate with you on your beliefs. or answer your questions, and ask some. once again, welcome to the board. oh yeah, i guess i should ask, u are a witness, right?
"No cool quote yet. but i'll think of one soon."
Where is the WTBTS going with "works"? I believe the point that E. Dunlap was making, and by the way my goodie-2-shoes-dub bro's, Dunlap helped formulate most of what you believe on this subject by means of the book Commentary on the Letter of James was that the WTBTS's dicta that we need to bang doors to avoid destruction is in error.
James wrote of "works", yet nowhere in the letter does he mention preaching as being in among works of faith. Works DID include helping the sick and needy. Do you do that?
In our congregation, some ones were sickly. Nobody came 'round to visit, so the sickly one called the C.O. and complained "make them love me... So, he did. He got together with the elders and at the meeting he directed that the body should choose somebody to "love" this sister. The ones chosen then had to go to the home of the sickly ones and ccok/clean, whatever... and then make a detailed written report to the elders. Now how's that for love!
The point is, the "works" of Jehovah's Witnesses, and I am one so I know, is not a demonstration of faith, but a legislated whitewash. Even if they were to do the real works of which James wrote, and of which Ed Dunlap felt were authentic works, these too are to be legislated rather than motivated by faith, and love....
SOMEWHAT LONG BUT GEOFF PLEASE READ- THANKS
As I mentioned, welcome to this forum. I enjoyed your post in ref to Dunlap-
Your post went directly the heart of the matter which deals with "WORKS"
I believe that there very few persons who think that there are no works needed for being a christian
The issue in my view focuses on :
1. What Constitutes "Works"
2. Who determines what constitutes works
The bible or the Writing Dept
Allow me if you would to give you a couple of examples of why this presents a problem for the Org as well as scriptually problems
You have a bro who avg 3 hours a month and he stops by to take food over to 4 old infirmed friends on a weekly basis and cut their grass and no in the congo even knows he does it.
Then you have a bro who avg 51 hours a month he is Aux Pioneering and he doesn't have time to stop over to see the old folks ( got to get his time in)
Now I don’t know if you are an elder or not but if you are you are aware of this fact-
When the co rolls in Tuesday PM he reviews the cards and by the time he gets to the meeting he has a Spirituality Opinion of these 2 men.
So by Friday night when he gets with elders( we always meet on Friday night) which of these 2 will get the Recommendation? So who really had works?
If you have been a jw for sometime you may recall that at one time we used to call the KM the Kingdom Service, then it went back to the KM- well very few jw really know why
So when I was at bethel I asked why- I asked 2 very good friends of mine JR Brown who was the Balck Louise Farakann among the black bro and RP Johnson who was one of the Society's number one Trouble Shooters
And they both told me and 2 other young bro basically the same thing
The Society redefined what SACRED SERVICE IS- now think about that-- the Society REDEFINED WHAT CONSITUTUES YOUR SERVICE TO GOD-
at the time I accepted it being that they were Bethel Heavies, but looking back I see again just another example of the Boys in Writing taking on a role that they are not authorized to .
Now allow me to show you another example of Flipflop and then blaming the rank and file instead of simply saying: " WE gave you an unscriptual Opinion of Ours that we were masquarading around as the Will of God"
How well it would be if they only followed their own teachings:
"Christians cannot be wishy-washy, going back to the same teachings they had rejected earlier." (WT 5/15/1976 p. 298)
*** w76 10/1 598-601 Rendering Sacred Service Night and Day ***
OUR WHOLE LIFE COURSE A “SACRED SERVICE”
9 “Sacred service,” then, is not something that occupies only a portion of our lives. It is not limited to just one activity or a certain number of activities but it takes in every aspect of our daily living. It can be summed up by these words: ‘Keep doing all things as unto Jehovah, whether eating or drinking or doing any other thing.’ (1 Cor. 10:31) Showing how all-embracing this service should be, the apostle says at Romans 12:1, 2: “I entreat you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. And quit being fashioned after this system of things.”
########Notice they use a bible text to tell you that it is ALL EMBRACING yes the bible supports what we are about to tell you is what they told millions of jw and billions of nonjw thru their literature#########
10 Many things are involved, but your aim, your goal and your heart motivation are key factors in determining whether what you do is really “sacred service” or not.
#####now notice they tell the indiviual jw they they are the one to determine what constitutes sacred service######3
For example, among us are many parents. Part, in fact, a large part, of your “sacred service” to God involves your children. Psalm 127:3 says that they are “an inheritance from Jehovah.” Are you caring for that inheritance as unto him and for his glory? This too is a “night and day” feature of your service, for God’s Word points out that parents should be instilling God’s fine principles into their children from the time they get up until the time they lie down. (Deut. 6:4-9) To do this, a basic thing is to study the Bible with them. But a parent should not say to himself, ‘I have a Bible study once a week with my children, just as I have with other people. Therefore that is enough for them to know what is right and to follow Bible principles.’ This is just not true. Remember, the Bible says that children of a believing parent are viewed by God as “holy” or sacred. (1 Cor. 7:14) How would you treat something left in your care that you knew was sacred to God? Would you not guard it most carefully every day, day and night?
11 What you do now to teach and discipline your children could well save them. On the other hand, if you are lax now, you may lose them. That is, the time may suddenly come—before you know it—when your words to them fall on deaf ears. The world will have more influence over them than you will have. Then, how will God view the way you have handled property sacred to him?
12 To instill God’s Word in the children all day long does not mean constant preaching to them. It calls for your exemplifying what God’s truth is all about by your daily life and conversation. On every occasion, either by your loving, close relationship with them and your friendly, intimate association and free communication, you can help them to appreciate Jehovah God, his wisdom, his love and the rightness of his ways. Listen to them, reason with them. When giving instructions or jobs for them to do, or in disciplining, show why, and explain the good results of obeying you as a parent and, consequently, of obeying God as Head over all.
13 You cannot simply try to have a “good child” in the sense that the world uses that term. Of course, you want your child to be well-mannered, respectful, honest, and considerate of others. But you want him or her to be that way because, above all, your child has come to know and to love Jehovah God. For your upbringing of your child to be different from the world’s youth, and to be truly a “sacred service,” the child’s mind and heart must be directed toward Jehovah, so that he or she becomes a praiser of Jehovah.—Ps. 148:12, 13.
#########so wt tell it's members that raising their kids to have a relationship with god is part of sared service – so far so good####
14 Husbands and wives can render “sacred service” by making their marriage successful and an honor to God’s institution of marriage.
######they tell marrried folks that making their marriage work is part of sacred service######
A man or a woman may be very kind and pleasant to others, patiently putting up with mistakes or even suffering indignities and injuries from them without retaliation. But when it comes to the marriage mate, a husband or a wife may be quick to anger, ‘reading between the lines’ of what the mate says, with a ‘chip-on-the-shoulder’ attitude, looking for an occasion to find fault. Or the couple may cut off communication with each other.
No matter what other things a married person may do, he or she is not fully rendering acceptable “sacred service” to God if he or she ignores the sacred marriage covenant.—Eph. 5:22-25, 29.
########notice the scritprual text used to support that point of marriage being connected to ones sared service to god- as jw studied this article they firmly left the hall thinking that the bible teaches this#########
15 Housewives have a fine opportunity to perform acceptable “sacred service” to God. Their fine works that others can see would certainly include keeping a neat, clean house, taking care of the cooking and the clothing needs of the family. For what is more on display to others than one’s home? A wife’s hospitality, her readiness to help her neighbors, particularly her willingness to ‘put herself out’ to assist other sisters in the congregation in whatever their needs may be—these are sacrifices in which God is well pleased. When people know these things about her, then her public declaration of the good news in the congregation territory will have a more powerful influence.—Acts 9:36-41; Titus 2:4, 5.
######notice again we see the bible is used to support this Dogma of Sacred service
keepping ones house clean- I recall the wt study that Sunday like it was yesterday and the long comments that many of the friends gave thinking that they could fine some joy in their normal everyday life in that it reflected part of their worship to god#####
########below notice what the kids could do if they wanted to render sared service to the most high god#######
16 If children in the household are concerned with rendering “sacred service” to Jehovah they can show respect for their father and help their mother in bringing honor to God by helping them to keep the house in good, clean order.
And where parents are not in the truth the children can do much in this way to cause the parents to honor God. Their conduct before schoolmates, respect for teachers, telling others about the good news when opportunity affords and working closely with the congregation in things done at the Kingdom Hall and sharing in the field service, certainly are things God counts as “sacred service” to him. (Prov. 20:11; Titus 2:6-8) A good test of your service, as to whether it is true “sacred service” or not, is the question you might ask yourself: ‘Do I go in the field service, perhaps carrying Bible literature to others?’ That is commendable. But, now, also ask yourself: ‘At school and elsewhere, what is my conduct? Do I do what worldly youths do? Or do I remember that I am to render “sacred service” to Jehovah night and day?’ You, like others, can do much to interest people in the good news by your daily conduct and fine attitude.
#######Notice the next few paragraphs and what the Writing dept DEFINES AS PART OF SACRED SERVICE########
17 Christian elders are also called on to serve night and day. Part of your “sacred service” is on behalf of your brothers, caring for their spiritual needs. To the elders of the Ephesus congregation, the apostle Paul could say: “Therefore keep awake, and bear in mind that for three years, night and day, I did not quit admonishing each one with tears.” (Acts 20:31) Your brothers today need your help no less than the brothers in Ephesus needed help back in the first century.
18 Can you do what Paul did, serving day and night? Paul’s words do not necessarily mean that he spent every minute in talking or preaching. No, for in Acts 20:34 he goes on to mention how he worked with his own hands doing secular work so as to attend to the material needs of himself and of those laboring with him. In fact, in writing to the Thessalonians, he said: “Certainly you bear in mind, brothers, our labor and toil. It was with working night and day, so as not to put an expensive burden upon any one of you, that we preached the good news of God to you.”—1 Thess. 2:9.
19 Yes, Paul sometimes was occupied not only in the day but also in the evening in secular work, such as tentmaking. But it is important for us to ask: Why did he do this? Was it for materialistic reasons or due to a desire for luxuries? No, but as he himself says, it was “so as not to put an expensive burden” on his brothers. He set an example in this so that no one could accuse him of leading a soft life through the financial support of those to whom he was serving the good news. Because his motive and aim were to advance the truth and eliminate any stumbling blocks in the minds of those he served he could be said to be engaging in God’s service even during those secular working hours.
But what if his motive had been selfish, if he had not been doing all things as unto Jehovah and for the advancement of the Kingdom interests? Then his work would have been no different from that of any other secular work. It would not have been a “sacred service.”
##########NOW NOTICE THE POINT ABOVE – ONCE AGAIN WE SEE THAT ACCCORDING O THE BIBLE THE DETERMIING FACTOR IS WHETHER SOMETHING IS Sared service or not is the motive- so once again it is left up to the person and his god –
now notice that they are SAYING THAT ONES JOB IF DONE WITH THE RIGHT HEART MOTIVATION IS SARED SERVICE AND THE BIBLE SUPPORTS THAT
THAT IS WHY THEY USED ALL THOSE BIBLE TEXT #######--
21 Each one of us, therefore, needs to ask himself, What is my viewpoint of my work and for what am I aiming? The only reasonable answer is found in the counsel that the apostle gave to the young man Timothy: “Be training yourself with godly devotion as your aim. For . . . godly devotion is beneficial for all things, as it holds promise of the life now and that which is to come.”—1 Tim. 4:7, 8; John 6:27.
22 Yes, the main objective of our godly devotion is to render “sacred service” to Jehovah and to bring honor to his name, thereby helping others to appreciate what kind of God he is and to come into intimate relationship with him. But by doing this we also live happier lives even now, in this time. And it means ‘the life to come,’ not only for us, but for our families and for all who are influenced by our conduct and our proclamation of the good news.
#######Se we see that the Writing dept has give jw a long list of things that "CAN" be considered sared service if the heart motivation is correct and they used TONS AND TONS OF BIBLE TEXT TO SUPPORT AND BACK UP THAT POINT
now after the meeting anyone who disagree with this explantion of all these bible text would have been DFED FOR APOSTASY AND YOU KNOW IT
the point being the Boys in writing determined what constitute works that meet with god's approval yes they determined what you could consider SARED SERVICE TO GOD HIMSELF
then they changed their mind and blamed you and I that we NEEDED TO ADJUST OUR VIEWPOINT when in fact our viewpoint was the result of what they taught us
read below and you will see it for yourself:
*** w80 8/15 30-1 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers
• At Colossians 3:23 Christians are counseled to serve their masters “whole-souled as to Jehovah, and not to men.”
Does this mean that secular work done as to Jehovah is part of our sacred service?
The Greek word la·trei'a, translated “sacred service” in the New World Translation, refers to dedicated worship or service to God. (Rom. 12:1) Jesus himself showed that it involves giving one’s primary allegiance to Jehovah. (Matt. 4:8-10; Luke 4:5-8) It is service directed toward advancing the interests of Jehovah’s kingdom.
In ancient times, God’s dedicated nation of Israel rendered “sacred service” in obedience to the requirements of the Law covenant, in order to become to Jehovah “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Ex. 19:5, 6) This service provided types and shadows of realities to appear later under the New Covenant arrangement, in connection with God’s kingdom by Christ Jesus. (Heb. 8:5; 9:9, 14) Thus anointed Christians are told: “Seeing that we are to receive a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us continue to have undeserved kindness, through which we may acceptably render God sacred service with godly fear and awe.” (Heb. 12:28) Their companions, the “great crowd,” who look forward to everlasting life on earth, must likewise show godly fear as they perform their assigned “sacred service” in the earthly courtyard of Jehovah’s temple.—Rev. 7:9, 15.
Does this “sacred service” mean simply ‘living a good life,’ being a fine example in raising and providing for one’s family, keeping the house clean, applying oneself at school, and so forth? Hardly, for the Israelites did such things over and above the sacred service that Jehovah commanded them to perform. (Ex. 7:16; 12:25, 26 [la·trei'a, Greek Septuagint Version]) And though the Sabbath law required them to ‘render service, and do all their work six days,’ certain sacred services were carried on even during the seventh day, such as at festivals and in giving instruction in the synagogues.—Ex. 13:5, 6; 20:9; Acts 13:14, 15; 18:4.
Today, there are people who live clean, moral lives, but who have no interest at all in God or his purposes. Surely their lives cannot be described as “sacred service.” Obviously, this has to do specifically with service to God, done out of appreciation for sacred things—something out of the ordinary that calls for the sacrifice of time and energy. It is different from secular work or everyday living, though with Christians this also should be done “for God’s glory.”—1 Cor. 10:31; Rom. 1:9.
Outstandingly, in this time preceding the “great tribulation” our “sacred service” requires obedience to Jesus’ commands to preach and to teach “this good news of the kingdom,” warning the people and making disciples. (Matt. 24:14, 21; 28:19, 20) It also embraces our assembling for worship, our family studies of the Bible and discussions of the text for each day. It extends to special service in the pioneer and missionary fields, and at Bethel homes operated for supplying spiritual food and providing good organization for the worldwide work of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It includes the services performed by traveling and congregational overseers and ministerial servants, as they care for the spiritual interests of their brothers. (Deut. 31:12, 13; 6:4-9; Eph. 6:4; Acts 1:8; 20:28; 1 Pet. 5:2, 3; 1 Tim. 3:1, 12, 13) This “sacred service” of all of God’s organized people is rendered from dedicated hearts, and with the help of Jehovah’s spirit and his holy angels. (Phil. 3:3; Acts 27:23) If we by such service ‘keep on seeking first the kingdom and [God’s] righteousness,’ Jehovah will see to it that the daily necessities of life are “added” to us.—Matt. 6:33; Luke 12:31.
Our “sacred service” must be modeled after the kind of service that Jesus did on earth. (1 Pet. 2:21-23) It is performed out of love for God and love for neighbor, the kind of self-sacrificing love in which Jesus set the example. (Mark 12:30, 31; John 13:34; 15:13) This service places emphasis on our public preaching, for we are told: “Let us always [through Jesus] offer to God a sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of lips which make public declaration to his name.” At the same time, we must “not forget the doing of good and the sharing of things with others”—no, not as mere charitable works, but from the heart in behalf of fellow worshipers. Thus when our brothers are in need, suffer calamity or are in distress, we will render loving assistance, so that all may be encouraged to hold fast the public declaration of their hope without wavering. “With such sacrifices God is well pleased.”—Heb. 10:23-25; 13:15, 16; Rom. 10:10-15; Jas. 1:27.
Do you have to readjust your viewpoint on “sacred service”? If so, may you do so in the spirit expressed at Second Corinthians 13:11: “Finally, brothers, continue to rejoice, to be readjusted, to be comforted, to think in agreement, to live peaceably; and the God of love and of peace will be with yoU
SO THE problem is not really does one need works to be a christain the issue is who gets to make up the list of what constitutes Works
The boys in writing have given 2 articles on the matter both with supporting bible text
What we have seen is not food from god but merely the Opinion of a Group of guys sitting around a table.
When the hours began to drop and placements went down it was decided that the first article had to be scraped.
And just one last example of how the boys in writng and the service dept just arbtrately
Determine if one I able to consider what they are doing is actually sared service
What is the scriptural basis as to why one Pioneer can count time on a Kingdom Hall quick build and another can't- and NO publisher can count time at all
Yet they are all working on God's House of worship
So the WT society is able to at their own choice decide if what you are doing really counts with god or not.
They can start and stop at anytime they want to- as to whether what you do for your god is actually sacred service or not
Ask you CO to show you the Scriptural text that allows a Pioneer to count time on a quick build and a publisher not to--smile
The Freedom to Think means:
"I'd rather have Questions that I can't Answer ----Than Questions, I can't Ask.
(or Answers that I can't Question)."