The Borg speaking out of Both sides of its mouth.
Or having it both ways as usual.
Does the WTS have a clergy class (yes-no)
by blondie 46 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
ThomasMore
The reason they say that they do not have a clergy class is because they criticized the clergy class of Christendom for so many decades. CLERGY was synonymous with false religion according to WTC.
In civil (and criminal) litigation, they claim that they should be recognized as clergy because they hear the confessions of the flock, and they desire to have the same non-reporting ecumenical privilege that clergy have.
However, as a number of judges have pointed out to WTC attorneys, ecumenical privilege has criteria under most state laws, and WTC appointed elders do not meet that criteria because:
1. They share privileged confessions with other elders, sometimes with a Service Dept. Desk man, and sometimes with the Legal Dept at Patterson or another Branch. This invalidates their right to claim ecumenical privilege. As soon as they share a confession, they violate the mandate required for ecumenical privilege that all US courts recognize.
2. WTC has stated many many many many times in their literature that they do not have a clergy. Plaintif attorneys are quick to cite WTC publications that state such. WTC attorneys have tossed the word salad saying that they don't have a "paid" clergy, but they do have an unpaid class of men that acts in such a capacity who deserve ecumenical priviledge. To that claim, plaintif attorneys are quick to point out that elders may hear confessions, but they typically share the 'confidential talk' with other elders, CO's, the Branch, and their Legal Dept.
In most if not all cases now, WTC's claim for clerical priviledge has been denied by judges. In Russell and Rutherford's day, they claimed they were not a religion. They stopped saying that when relgions were exempted from taxation. Suddenly they wanted to be a religion.
For many years, they claimed that they were not part of 'organized religion'. Now they often refer to themselves as "THE ORGANIZATION", claiming that they are well organized and deserving of the same considerations that all other religious entities enjoy.
It's no wonder reasonable persons think they are yahoos. They reinvent themselves when the situation merits. They have NO INTEGRITY.
-
Fisherman
they have a clergy. Elders, Deacons, Bishops, etc. Except they call them Elders, Ministerial Servants, and Circuit Overseers.
That is not a “clergy” class.
-
Konagirl
Longlivetherenegades - "The C.O told me he has to follow the process and procedures and today the rest is history. Announcement made regarding such appointment is the ORDINATION they deny they don't do."
Well, they mention "ordained"...
Worldwide, a total of 21,629 ordained ministers staff the branch facilities. syr22 p. 2 - 2022 Service Year Report· All baptized Witnesses are ordained ministers and share in the preaching and teaching work. Frequently Asked Questions About Jehovah’s Witnesses p. 13
This is a manmade “anointing”, since they also use the word “ordained” in relationship to the early anointed priesthood, but in that case it is a matter of being “God-ordained”.
“ And since Jehovah recognized no priesthood aside from that of the house of Aaron during the existence of the Law covenant, it follows that what Aaron’s office foreshadowed, namely, the priesthood of Jesus Christ, who is also the greater High Priest according to the manner of Melchizedek, is the only way of approach to Jehovah. (Ac 4:12; Heb 4:14; 1Jo 2:1, 2) Any priesthood that opposes this God-ordained King-Priest and his underpriesthood is to be avoided by true worshipers of God.—De 18:18, 19; Ac 3:22, 23; Re 18:4, 24.” It-2For sure, I know there is much opposition against the "underpriests" if they speak against lies. Ray Franz and others, are examples of those kicked out for speaking up for truth in the scriptures. (John 16:2), and it is the elder "priesthood"/clergy doing the dirty work.
From what I am (barely) perceiving about you, I believe you will not survive being an elder for long. At least I hope so.
-
Konagirl
Fisherman:
hey have a clergy. Elders, Deacons, Bishops, etc. Except they call them Elders, Ministerial Servants, and Circuit Overseers.
"That is not a “clergy” class."
A "clergy" class of priests? Remember they said so themselves:
“Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth.” Wt 02/8/1
If I am a teacher's substitute, can it not be said that I am the teacher for the day, and am treated by the students as a teacher?
Yes, the elders are standing in the position of the anointed priesthood/spiritual temple, where they don't belong. Mark 13:14
-
JW GoneBad
Does WT have a clergy class?
Yes!
Notice definition of clergy from the dictionary:
"A pastor, minister is an ordained clergy member who works in one religious organization, such as a church or parish. Pastors, ministers serve their congregation consistently by planning and overseeing weekly church services. They typically lead worship services and preach sermons."
-
Fisherman
Konagirl:
“Did Jesus Christ, the Head of the Christian congregation, give instructions for his disciples to be divided up into clergy and laity? Nowhere in the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John or in the book of Acts of Apostles or in the book of Revelation are there instructions to split up his disciples into two general classes. His instructions are to the direct contrary. In the temple at Jerusalem, to his disciples and to the crowds of Jews, Jesus said: “But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. “ —ka chapter 18 pg 36 wt copyright.
The JW do not identify as having a clergy and laity class, all brothers. That is how JW self define. How the law applies is not determined in a forum of public opinion.
Relating to how the law applies to clergy there are legal provisions that specifically apply to clergy such as parking benefits, tax benefits and exemptions and other benefits and laws that govern the clergy depending on jurisdiction but jw doo not subscribe or benefit or are governed by laws that apply to the clergy because they self define as not having a clergy class. But as I explained in my previous post, legislation uses the term clergy broadly to apply to ministers, Rabbis, etc as. With JW all active ministers with no laity. JW elders and shepherd managers don’t benefit from clergy laws or are governed by them because JW do not identify as having a clergy but that is the decided by the Courts when clergy laws are determined to apply to JW. Clergy ir no clergy, JW is a religion with rights protected by the Constitution. Unconstitutional to exclude a religion because they are required to have a clergy.
Take for example the RCC with a laity class of parishioners. Nobody is laity in JW.
-
psyco
If I remember well, I read somewhere that in court one of the Presidents or Governing Body members (maybe F. Franz?) declared that JWs do have a clergy!
-
Beth Sarim
The Borg in every way,,has a clergy class.
In every way you just said they do.
They call themselves self-proclaimed ministerial servants,elders and circuit overseers. They may not outright call themselves ""clergy class"", but they rely on government laws and subsidies to reap the benefits of such.
At the same time trying to distance themselves from a "clergy class"" distinction.
They rely on "clergy penitent" classification to reap the laws of the land.
Anyone who denies this,,,please, please pull your head out of the sand, now.
-
blondie
The WTS relies on semantics, quibbling about details. The word clergy is not even used in the bible, and the WTS cherry-picks scriptures and uses weasel words. The WTS claims to have a clergy when they are in a secular court trying to block the secular authority from having access to "secret" damaging info, but then the WTS wants to say they are better than religions that have a clergy. As to not having a "laity," if the WTS claims to have a clergy to the secular authorities, then they must have a laity.