Blackout<------------------ enjoying this thread very much.
"For as OFTEN as you eat it...."
by AGuest 65 Replies latest jw friends
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JamesThomas
Yes, I see the "evil" too SJ; and there is pain and there is sorrow. It is easy and natural to feel a sense, an unspeakable Presence of what that word "God" points to, when sitting in awe of a sunset or gazing silently into the unjudgmental and depthless eyes of an infant. But when faced with tragedy, when experiencing what we call "evil", what then? Here is where the rubber meets the road. Here is where one walks the walk, instead of just talking the talk. Can I remain true even here? Even in the middle of hell? Even when everything screams God/Love/Truth, is absent? Even here, can ones eye remain single? Can attention be drawn within on what is deeper, on what is Real, on what is True? Can I shift consciousness to the Infinite Invisible that transcends phenomenal expression? Can I surrender even more to the Beloved? Thus "evil" becomes not a reason for God to condemn and destroy, but an opportunity to dissolve even more into Truth.....until all there is, is Truth; and "evil" is seem for what it is: as not truth, as false, as illusion. Perhaps too radical a vision for most. But this is the way I see it. JamesT
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AGuest
Yes, I see the "evil" too SJ; and there is pain and there is sorrow.
Indeed. But pain... and sorrow... are not the same as evil. The birth of a child is painful. Sickness is painful... and sorrowful. Death... is sorrowful. LIFE... is joy AND pain... happiness AND sorrow. It was not these that I was referring to, my dear brother James.
It is easy and natural to feel a sense, an unspeakable Presence of what that word "God" points to, when sitting in awe of a sunset or gazing silently into the unjudgmental and depthless eyes of an infant.
Ummm... James... I'm sorry, but you've got me confused with those who "see" God... in the "beauty" of creation. To me, while certainly sometimes beautiful to the eyes, a sunset... is a sunset. And I am not so sure I "see" what YOU see when I gaze "into the unjudgmental and depthless eyes of an infant." Sorry, but Hitler, Dawmer, Bundy, etc., were infants. One cannot yet know what a "man" will be as an infant. To me, it is just that... an infant. True, some are a bit "cuter" than others... and, yes, I am somewhat drawn to the physical beauty of certain things, too. I am what I am: human. However, I do not "see" God in such things. You can trust me on this... or read my posts.
But when faced with tragedy, when experiencing what we call "evil", what then?
Again, you misjudge me: tragedy... is a fact of life at this particular "stage" of it. Tragedy... usually manifests itself in UNFORSEEN occurrences, most of which we have no control over. Evil, however, is ALWAYS controllable... and originates NOT with nature, but with man: it is manifested in what earthling man DOES... TO earthling man... which is avoidable. For example, if I am driving along and for some reason lose control of my car, so that I cause an accident that kills you... THAT... is a tragedy. However, if I lay in my bed (or sit at my desk or whatever), and lay up a plan to harm you... technically or literally... FOR MY OWN SELFISH GAIN... that... is evil. If I dislike you because you are a hateful person, and so I remove myself from your presence and pretty much stay away from you, that is a tragedy. If I dislike you because you are a different color, etc., than I, so that I attempt to remove YOU... even by means of excessive force... that is evil. See the difference? The difference between tragedy and evil... in this case... is motive... and intent. It is INTENT that determines whether an act is evil.
Here is where the rubber meets the road. Here is where one walks the walk, instead of just talking the talk.
Indeed.
Can I remain true even here?
Hmmmm... can you?
Even in the middle of hell?
Or what you "perceive" to be as "hell"... okay... hell for you...
Even when everything screams God/Love/Truth, is absent?
I have never known such a thing. Wait, now don't go thinking that I haven't because I must have never known tragedy. My dear one... I have known tragedy. GREAT tragedy. For me, however, it has NEVER resulted in a question of my Father's existence... or my Lord's... but rather has ALWAYS proven it even more so to me. I am reluctant to give you a list of my personal "tragedies" because someone once made the comment that the reason people believe in God is because their lives are so bad, that such belief is all they have. Now, I had to take a look at that and see if it was true in my case, as I do not expeditiously dismiss what folks say to me... or about me. Why? Because I believe in "walking the walk," and so have been taught to "take the rafter out of" my own eye. Thus, when something is said, rather than dismiss the statement as untrue, I most certainly examine it. But in this matter, after doing so, I had no choice but to conclude that in my case the statement was false. Why? Because although the tragedies have been great... and many... the joys have abounded even more. MUCH more. But my belief... whether in tragedy or joy... and what I hear... and its source... have remained the same. If you still want to know about them, however, I've most probably mentioned one or two... or more... in other posts. But I think I'll let you do a little investigating... if it really turns out to be that important to you. Frankly, I think it's a bit boring reading because it is, after all... LIFE... as it is right now.
Even here, can ones eye remain single?
Based on what I've shared with you thus far, I would have to say "yes". Rare, perhaps... but, certainly possible.
Can attention be drawn within on what is deeper, on what is Real, on what is True?
Personally, I know no other "way". For me, it is quite obvious that when tragedy hits... or even evil... something bigger than me has to get me through it. Truly, I'm just not that "strong." I am human, and so need something a bit "higher" to... ummmm... support and sustain me. And that something... or rather that "someone"... has not let me down yet. After all this time, then, why on earth would I lose my trust... and relinquish my loyalty? And that is the gist of things: someone who has sustained me through... well, I can't tell you what all... accused of being absent... nonexistent... irrelevant. That hurts me, personally, though. Because, for ME, it's like saying that someone I KNOW exists... who demonstrates Himself to ME... does not. But how can I say that? How can I deny... what is TRUTH?
Can I shift consciousness to the Infinite Invisible that transcends phenomenal expression? Can I surrender even more to the Beloved?
I would hope that you could. I would also hope that He is not always invisible to you... nor beyond phenomenal expression? For if it were as you say... always and for everyone... tell me, what is the POINT? Why BE... if you can't be... REALIZED... by those who 'adore' you? True, my Father and my Lord are invisible... to the eyes and ears OF FLESH... but they are certainly not beyond expression! I have seen them. I hear them. When "in the spirit." So that it is not that I "surrender" to what is unknown... but I surrender... readily... eagerly... to what I DO know. My faith... is NOT blind, dear James. True, I WAS blind... but now... I see. But... do you?
Thus "evil" becomes not a reason for God to condemn and destroy
It is not God who condemns, dear one. Evil... condemns... itself. However, it IS God's right to destroy... and on behalf of those who are NOT evil, it is His duty. For vengeance is HIS - He no longer grants it to the physical creation, for such creation failed to exercise the RIGHT... justly.
but an opportunity to dissolve even more into Truth...
And yet, can one touch something unclean... and remain clean? Can evil dissolve itself into Truth... and Truth remain untouched? It does not work that way, dear James. Why? Because... even a LITTLE "leaven"... ferments the WHOLE lump. It is true that my Lord took into his flesh that which was "unclean" in the flesh of others. He bore their sins in HIS body. However, when in the flesh he did not take that which was "unclean" in the SPIRIT of others. To the contrary, he cast THOSE things out! As a spirit, however, for those who WISH it... he can now cleanse the spirit as well, by means of his "spiritual" blood, holy spirit, praise Jah! But that which remains unclean then... evil... must be CLEANSED. And it is cleansed initially by being cast out... or cut off... and then it is destroyed. Genesis 3:23 Matthew 25:46 Matthew 8:31, 32 Acts 16:18 Acts 19:13 2 Peter 3:7-13 Revelation 20:9 For the only thing that CAN do such cleansing... IS destruction... by fire. For water can purify only to a surface degree. Fire, however, cleanses... utterly. It is the same for the celestial creation... as it is the terrestrial.
until all there is, is Truth
Which results NOT from the "dissolving" of evil into Truth... for such "dissolving" would only cause a permeation. Rather evil must be... CUT OFF/OUT... separated... from Truth...and destroyed. Does this mean that people who don't believe in God, or who don't keep the Ten Command-ments are all going to die at the hand of God? I hope you don't "hear" that in what I am stating here. For it is what many people believe, and thus have such a hard time "seeing" God as the manifestation of love. But rather than explain that again, I will just refer you back to what I was permitted to share earlier, above, on that subject. Evil... must be removed... for the sake of those who are NOT evil... whose hearts, while not PERFECT... are not "evil". Anything less would be unjust... and therefore, evil. But it will be done by God... and not earthling man. For God is innocent. Earthling man... is not... and therefore his act... would be hypocritical. Proverbs 22:22, 23 Isaiah 1:16, 17
and "evil" is seen for what it is: as not truth, as false, as illusion.
James, evil itself is very real. And it did not originate here, in the physical realm, but rather, the physical realm was created for the very purpose of hiding the "seed" of God's wife, the true sons of the spirit realm... FROM such evil. Which evil originated "in heavenly places." Unfortunately, that evil [tendency] was allowed access to this realm, as well. It is the physical realm... that is not "real", per se... but rather, a "shadow" of the reality. But just like "good" can exist in both realms... (for my Lord - Light - was allowed to exist here for a time, and even though he denied his goodness, the fact that he is "the exact representation" of my Father... and his denial of such goodness... lends to fact of his goodness)... "evil" can, as well. So that with regard to evil, what USED to exist there as well... now only exists here. And just as it was eradicated there... so, too, it will be here.
Perhaps too radical a vision for most. But this is the way I see it.
No more "radical" than what my Lord shared in his days in the flesh... nor what I have been permitted to share with you. I am compelled to ask you to "test" your vision, however, against what, though, I do not know. Perhaps something that once helped me, will help you. I would quote it, but I think not. If you choose to look it up, wonderful. If not... wonderful. The CHOICE to "hear" is ALWAYS ours... and the message is not mine. Therefore, I will let him "speak"... and perhaps you will have ears... to "hear". Revelation 3:17, 18 Again, may the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whose name is JAH... of Armies... and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... be upon you... if you so wish it. YOUR servant, and a slave of Christ, SJ
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JamesThomas
Thank you again SJ for your thoughtful response. There is a deep and wide rift, a fundamental difference in our views, that seems to have us dancing in circles, light years apart. I feel it comes down to this one statement:
"James, evil itself is very real."
The entirety of your last post was based on your belief in the power of evil. Probably 99.9% of all people would agree with you....and would probably see me as a raving mad man to say otherwise. I would agree that what we call "evil" exists on a level of carnal consciousness, but ultimately, it is false. When (within our minds) we create a god less than Infinite, we make room for evil. We now have God over here, and not-God (evil) over there; and we have a god with an enemy that needs destroying and the human emotions and anger of "vengeance" to attack. We have stepped into the carnal-mind; we have eaten from the tree of good and evil; and the carnal, phenomenal, time and space drama of the war between good and evil begins......and never ends until we step out of the mind and back into our True-home, the spiritual heart within. Evil will be "destroyed" when we see it as untrue; and we will see it as untrue when we discover the Christ, the Truth, within us; when we discover and awaken to the True-essence of Being and realize all seeming separation from God/Truth is mind generated illusion. This is not a belief system or teaching. Not an intellectual exercise. It is an unspeakable sense that is here, now, within for those willing and open to know it. What the word "God" points to, is not absent from anyone, or anywhere. Only in our minds is God/Truth too tiny to be here. Only in our minds, does the battle rage. We are free to dwell there. Or not. JamesT
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SatanSpawn
Good nooz, AGuest, honey! Y'all ain't gon' hafta tote dat Prophet badge all by yoself any mo. Gawd done sent some mo hearin' his voice, jes' same as you. Got all the same logic, same proof, same everything. Rejoice, honey!
Wanda Barzee was quoted on Friday as telling a close friend who visited her in Salt Lake County jail that she and husband Brian David Mitchell had received a revelation from God three years ago that they should take seven new wives, according to the Deseret News.
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AGuest
Dearest James T... peace to you... and... I "hear" you. Truly, I do. I just don't think my hearing... and seeing... is as abstract as yours. You make sense; you truly do... and so, I don't think there's so great a chasm between us. I think that what you believe to be... ummm... imperceivable... I believe to be quite perceivable. And I think we both would agree that it is what is "carnal"... terrestrial... that stands in the way.
Truth resides in me, dear one... but he is not... ummm... abstract. Truth is not a what... but a whom. And he is quite real... and quite alive. A person, even; just not in an earthly form... or a form that can be see or heard with our carnal selves. For we are much more than that: all we need do is realize THAT "truth"... transcend our flesh... and through Christ... "enter".
Again, I bid you peace.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
(Spawn... although you are quite truthful in how you label yourself... your comparison of "prophets" is weak... puny... insignificant... and false... as are you. Now, poof, be gone. Go get yourself a "life"... such that it can possibly be. For your time is short and you have no "power" here as YOUR "light"... is quite dark. May JAH, then, rebuke you. Again.)
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manon
The Lord's Supper
Mathew 26:26-27-28
"Take and eat; this is my body." "Drink from it, all of you." This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
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SatanSpawn
Dass jes like ah say... same logic. Ah means lack of it.
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JamesThomas
I have appreciated your time and openness. Perhaps as mentioned before, are differences are mainly semantic. As you say "For we are much more than that: all we need do is realize THAT "truth"... transcend our flesh... and through Christ... "enter". My words may be "abstract", for what I attempt to express in words can not be; for it is a very intimate sense of Being, the "much more". It is not separate from what I am, yet endless. Peace to you as well SJ. JamesT
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gumby
Gumby.......always raining on shelbys parade. Here is some food for thought.
In all other major respects the two cults were all but identical. Mithras had had twelve followers with whom he had shared a last sacramental meal. He had sacrificed himself to redeem mankind. Descending into the underworld, he had conquered death and had risen to life again on the third day. The holy day for this sun god was, of course, Sunday; Christians continued to follow the Jewish Sabbath until the fourth century. His many titles included ‘the Truth,’ ‘the Light,’ and ‘the Good Shepherd.’ For those who worshipped him, invoking the name of Mithras healed the sick and worked miracles. Mithras could dispense mercy and grant immortality; to his devotees he offered hope. By drinking his blood and eating his flesh (by proxy, from a slain bull) they too could conquer death. On a Day of Judgement those already dead would be raised back to life.
All this may surprise modern Christians but it was very familiar to the Church Fathers [See e.g. Justin, Origen, Tertullian], who filled their ‘Apologies’ with dubious rationales as to how Mithraism had anticipated the whole nine yards of Christianity centuries before the supposed arrival of Jesus – ‘diabolic mimicry by a prescient Satan’ being the standard explanation. Pagan critics were not slow to point to the truth: Christianity had simply copied the popular motifs of a competitive faith.