The Show of Over-Patriotism Astounds Me

by D8TA 113 Replies latest jw friends

  • DakotaRed

    I have to wonder just how free those people inside the World Trade Centers felt as they watched two airliners flying straight towards their buildings?

    I keep hearing all the cries of losing freedoms, but I haven't seen anyone actually lose any freedom yet. I hear endless speculations that end up empowering terrorist to repeat September 11, but I have seen no one lose any freedom yet, only terrorist and their allies.

    "American diplomat Douglas Davidson told the OSCE Permanent Council in Vienna January 23.

    "The goal of the anti-terrorism legislation in the United States,"

    Davidson said, referring to the 2001 USA Patriot Act, "is to give

    investigators means to uncover threats to the rule of law without

    intruding on the civil liberties Americans highly value."

    He added that the law gives authorized officials "access to specific

    information only under the condition that the persons to whom the

    records related were the subject of an investigation into

    international terrorism or clandestine intelligence."

    Davidson said the law can only be implemented in specific and narrow

    cases after judicial review and that the U.S. Congress would oversee

    implementation "to ensure adherence to our constitutional


  • back2dafront


    If you believe and trust politicians, then everything should be okay.

    I've found that in the real world, those you can truly trust are few and far between. Time will tell.

    My policy is to hope for the best, but be aware of potential warning signs and to never let my gaurd down.

    Good thread.


  • DanTheMan

    All this stuff has got me scared out of my wits.

    Stop the world, I wanna get off.

  • reubenfine

    I have a friend who works in a pawn shop in Phoenix, AZ. They have 19 licences to be in business! I can't get a job or bank account without a social security card, nor can I legally go into business without a permit. I'm charged $4 to walk on public land on a dirt hiking path, need a permit to drive, licence for the car, and need to ask permission if I want to work on my house. If I don't pay proptery taxes, the state with take my land and house at the point of a gun, so who really owns it?? The only things I can think of that don't require government permission are spending money and walking down the street.

    My definition of "freedom" is doing what pleases you as long as you don't victimize other people or their property. I shouldn't have to ask permission from the government to have a dog or walk on public land or see the Grand Canyon. On top of that, if I don't voluntarily subscribe to have my money extorted from my paycheck as an income tax, my wages, bank account, and property will get liened. I would wager that Thomas Jefferson would draw a gun on any 10-cent tyrant who demanded a license for a dog.

    My friend got a ticket the other day for walking across railroad tracks in Mesa, AZ. "Trespassing." I looked up the law and it is a crime in Arizona. A mother of 4 in Gilbert, AZ, was arrested for not having her dog licensed. A couple in Glendale, AZ, were arrested because they didn't get their Christmas lights down by a certain date.

    My rule if I ever sit on a jury again is I will not convict anyone of anything if there is no victim. Any law that punishes someone when there is no victim is a bad law. The biggest cause of crime is laws, laws that punish where there is no victim. The only crimes against the state in the Constitution are treason and counterfeiting.

    Edited by - reubenfine on 9 February 2003 10:23:18

  • Country Girl
    Country Girl

    Expansion of Patriot Act Criticized

    Sat Feb 8, 6:33 AM ET
    Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!

    By CURT ANDERSON, Associated Press Writer

    WASHINGTON - The Justice Department ( news - web sites) is preparing to expand the 2001 Patriot Act to increase surveillance within the United States while restricting access to information and limiting judicial review, a nonprofit government watchdog group asserted Friday.

    The Center for Public Integrity said it obtained a copy of the draft legislation from a government source. The document, labeled "confidential," was posted Friday on the organization's Internet site along with an analysis.

    Justice Department officials said no final decisions have made on any such legislation, and it could change substantially before it is completed. Spokeswoman Barbara Comstock acknowledged the department is "continually considering anti-terrorism measures and would be derelict if we were not doing so."

    "The department's deliberations are always undertaken with the strongest commitment to our Constitution and civil liberties," she added.

    The original Patriot Act, passed by Congress in the weeks following the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, gave the government broad new anti-terrorism powers to use wiretaps, electronic and computer eavesdropping, searches and the authority to obtain a wide range of other information in it's investigations. It also broke down the traditional wall between FBI ( news - web sites) investigators and intelligence agents.

    According to the Center for Public Integrity, the draft expansion of the Patriot Act would be called the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003.

    Among other things, it would prohibit disclosure of information regarding people detained as terrorist suspects and prevent the Environmental Protection Agency ( news - web sites ) from distributing "worst-case scenario" information to the public about a nearby private company's use of chemicals.

    In addition, the measure would create a DNA database of "suspected terrorists;" force suspects to prove why they should be released on bail, rather than have the prosecution prove why they should be held; and allow the deportation of U.S. citizens who become members of or help terrorist groups.

    "It really is a broadening and a deepening of the government's powers," said Charles Lewis, executive director of the Center for Public Integrity.

    Congressional aides said they had not been consulted by the Justice Department on the development of such a bill and department officials say it has not been transmitted to Capitol Hill. However, several aids ( news - web sites) have said they considered it likely that the Bush administration would propose some changes this year.

    Rep. John Conyers ( news , bio, voting record) of Michigan, top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee ( news - web sites ), said the legislation "turns the Bill of Rights completely on its head."

    "This draft bill constitutes yet another egregious blow to our citizens' civil liberties," Conyers said. "Among other things, the Bush administration now wants to imprison suspects before they are tried and create DNA databases of lawful residents who have committed no crime."

  • DakotaRed

    Back, I notice you didn't state any freedoms you have lost.

    You obviously know nothing of me as I have openly stated many times I do not trust politicians. It appears though, that you and many other intelligent ones here have placed your trust in ones who, although they wave a flag of freedom, wish to destroy the very fabric of freedom our nation was founded on. Keep on supporting the Liberal Socialists and you will indeed lose freedoms. Don't think so? Read the history of the Russian Revolution and subsequent Soviet Union that recently collapsed. Although called Communism, it was Liberal Socialists.

    But go ahead, let's tie the very hands of those you want to protect you and allow those that hate and wish to destroy Western Culture free reign. Yes, they use the same freedoms you enjoy to freely walk amongst us and hide their activities. Heaven forbid we take their freedoms away.

    I still await hearing what freedoms any have lost due this Act. Oh, didn't you know? It's been passed and in effect for a while already.

  • aluminutty

    Agreed. I love watching our freedoms slip between our fingers. "You have a democracy, if you can keep it", don't those words ring true today.

    Sure folks who live in the US have it good, but, really not much better than anywhere else in the developed world. Canada, Australia, NZ, the U.K., plus all of the scandanavian countries, all of western Europe, and even Costa Rica, have an equal or higher standard of living to that which we enjoy here in the states. You say
    The fact is we have many freedoms that most don't on this planet -- and this is true, but only most, certainly not all. If the freedom that I love slips farther away and the states become more of a police state, I'll move. I'm not saying it wouldn't be hard, but, I'd be just as happy to live in San Jose, CA as I would be to live in San Jose CR. The neat thing is that even the climate between the two San joses is nearly identical.

    Edited by - aluminutty on 9 February 2003 10:48:48

  • D8TA
    Why would you smile???

    Jeeez, EVERYBODY knows why D8TA would smile. He's an arrogant bastard who likes to gloat, remember? (actually, it's a with a sad sense of Irony smile, with a dash of my own disbelief...should you see me in real life, you'd understand.)

    What would you do to stop another attack form happening with a more powerful weapon???

    What are your answers to this situation??? Should we cut off Israel, who is dealing with the same problem from the same people??? Should we get all of our forces out of the part of the world that the "would be Martyrs" who send the real "martyrs" with the bombs out tell us to stay out of??? If we were spineless enough and did both of those things do you think they would really stop???

    Hey, I did a lot to stop such attacks from happening. But, I was labled a "left-wing" nut. When I marched and spoke to people about U.S. policy as to global relations, how it does affect people outside their boarders...I was being "unpatriotic". When I voiced my opinion in which the 1st Amnd. allowed me to do, and I was peaceful, I was arrested and detained...only to be let go without being processed.

    You know what the problem is? You.

    You are the problem.

    The citizens of the United States are the problem.

    Right in the nose, isn't it? so? The majority "vote" for politicians and don't follow up on the actions of their government as to relations with the International community. They don't even know what type of corrupt and unjust deals go on behind the political curtain. They just sit back, watch their NFL and worry about waxing the SUV...and let politcians run amuk. When those who do find corruption and expose it, well...unless they don't fit in the category of "left" or "right" of issues...they are labled as "people trying to subvert the system".

    You ask yourself, "why do 'these people' hate me? John/Jane Q. Public of good ol' U.S. of A.?" Well, Sonny Jim, you are a Republic with democratic practices aren't you? I mean, you do "vote" or "abstain from voting" for the politicians who screw people over...don't ya?

    You want my answer? You want A answer? Get involved with your community. Get involved with the workings of politics in your nation. Quit giving the reigns of power over to those who serve special interests, corporations, social elite, and the wealthy.

    God sakes, you people can't even enjoy having a beer on the beach without being fined or ticketed! Yep, "find reasons" to stop some of the most simple human freedoms (ooooh, the children! think of the children!---or---God thinks that's baaaaad---or---it may 'offend' somebody *gasp* ) and lay down, and become sheeple.

    I call it the "fast-food syndrome". You want it all done for you, but you don't want to go in to McDonald's kitchen to see if they are spitting in your burger. You are content to say, "Oh yah...I vote...but uh...that's all I I trust my fellow human who has a 100 mile long association with special interests other then the regular Joe of the U.S.".

    Now....where are you at? People going ape-shit and killing each other.

    As to "parking nukes" on your precious cities? So far...there's been 3,000 people from the U.S. who lost their lives from "those people" opposed to the 10's of thousand of civilians who are being starved to death by U.S. policy, Or the 100's of thousands who have died from U.S. imposed sanctions that prevent medical care, or who have been in the "collatoral" damage of U.S. bombs. You want to punish Saddam Hussien? Go AFTER Saddam Hussien, not his population. Their lives are equal in value as yours. Their culture, tradtions, socities, and way of equal in value as yours.

    Get it in to your head. There is John and Jane Q. Iraq, Indonesia, Brazil, New Zealand, Australia, Africa, Arabia, Pakistan, France, Germany, etc. etc.... who are wearing the same shoes as you are, and they are the ones who are loosing family members and children because of U.S. foreign policy. You think "those people" just sit back and say, "Oh ya, well...I can see why they kill us"? Jeeez. Ignorance.

    Instead of trying to "justify" the need for war, instead of trying to "justify" your need to obliterate your Bill of Rights...why don't you find the need to start understanding how the U.S. of A. does affect you and your fellow humans on this globe, about the one that's not in the interest of the "common good" for humanity.

    The "nobility" argument is bullshit. "Ooooh we help people!". Yah, like the mafia helps it's people...with a crap load of strings attached, with similar tactics employed.

    This is going to bug a lot of people, what I've typed here today. You can get all red in the face and start stomping your feet, and go blowing up about how none of this true and deny it...but welcome to the world, U.S. of A. You tout about being the "most powerful" nation on this planet? You have that pride about it? Welcome to realities of such power. Welcome to the realities of such responsibility.

    Instead of being led by corrupt politicians with that ring in your nose, start getting involved with your system of government and hold those public servants accountable while you still have that chance. Start holding yourselves accountable for YOUR Republic and democratic practices.

    ( and some day I'll even learn how to spell and type coherent sentence structures - edited)

    Edited by - D8TA on 9 February 2003 10:59:8

    Edited by - D8TA on 9 February 2003 13:0:34

    Edited by - D8TA on 9 February 2003 13:6:3

    Edited by - D8TA on 9 February 2003 13:6:37

  • back2dafront


    You obviously know nothing of me as I have openly stated many times I do not trust politicians. It appears though, that you and many other intelligent ones here have placed your trust in ones who, although they wave a flag of freedom, wish to destroy the very fabric of freedom our nation was founded on.

    Dude, what are you talking about? I merely said I'm being cautious. That's all. How you read all of this into that is beyond me.


    I'm diggin ya.



  • Aztec

    Apart from wholeheartedly agreeing with D8TA I would like to add that there are simple ways to be more involved in your government. You can sign up to be a delegate for whichever party you align yourself with. This gives you a voice in who your parties nominee is. You can even run yourself if you so choose. You can attend political rallies. I took my son to his first when he was only 3. You can attend city council meetings. You can sign and start petitions for and against policies and laws that you agree/disagree with.

    Just some ideas.


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