Bill Bowen talks about CBC Fifth Estate!

by UnDisfellowshipped 62 Replies latest jw friends

  • RevMalk
    RevMalk

    Valis said:

    I do think though that Bill should post this here himself and if he is unwilling to come here and defend his views then they shouldn't be posted here. Just my opinion.

    Prisca:
    This is my opinion too. If Bill Bowen feels he is above posting on this site, then what business is his emails being posted on this site?

    I don't know if these things shouldn't be posted here or not, but I do understand the thinking behind this theory. What gets me though, is when he asks people to post things here, that just seems plain rude, especially considering what he's said about us here in the past.

    Anyway, with that being said, there is some good coming out of this, and I do think the program was good, all of them actually. Although this thing about Bill getting all the credit makes me ill. Who were the true heroes of the show? Come on, let's see a list, who wants to start?

    Ok, I'll begin:

    1. Mike Moss

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    I don`t see Bill Bowen getting all the credit.There are a great many posts on this board to prove it.There were also hero`s we didn`t see on that program like hawk and scully..RevMalk you`ve got a hot coal up your ass when it comes to Bill Bowen..The man has faults like everbody else,but he did get Silent Lambs this far..He championed those who could not fight for themselves..Whether you like him or not,he has done his best to do the right thing...OUTLAW

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    Yeah, I'm with farkel and revmalik on this one.

    The Society is so in love with their "position" as "shepherds of God's flock" and "leaders into the New World", as well as being condescending that this old world is not working out and needs Divine direction - that they take on themselves the authority to be our judges and police. The thing is they suck at it.

    They took on this role, enamored as they were with their "prophetic role", to play the prince over us and judge us like they can make all the rules a society needs.

    They took on more than they could handle, no wonder they fucked it up.

    If they'd just been humble enough to let "caesar's" world police itself like the Bible says they should in matters of criminality. Anyway, I'm out of there and thank Heaven.

    CZAR

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    The points made at the top of this page are too good to fail to get more attention.

    RevMalk said

    Everyone is barking up the wrong tree. The two witness rule that the society has in place should not EVER be removed! Even asking them to makes us look like idiots. Come on, if any one of you were falsely accused of child molestation by the Church and tried and convicted on the word of one person, you'd be singing a different tune.

    The two witness rule in itself is NOT the problem! Wake up!

    The problem lies in the fact that the two witness rule ENDS the investigation.

    Come on, it doesn't matter if Ray Franz wrote the policy or not, because the two witness rule is NOT the problem!

    This is all so frustrating. No more stupid letters to the society, no more accusing Ray Franz of writing a rule that makes perfect sense.

    Thank you Rev for bringing this out.

    This cause should be based on the following:

    • Support for Survivors of Abuse
    • Public Awareness programs
    • Working towards changing the law
    • Support for Abuse Survivors
    • Support for Abuse Survivors
    • Support for Abuse Survivors!

    Support.

    About nine months ago while still a JW attending some meetings I went public on the courthouse steps along with Bill Bowen, Barbara Anderson and several other great advocates and survivors. I had little to say to the reporters except to emphasize that in every case of molestation I had seen as an elder NOTHING was done to support the survivors. No counseling, no therapy, not even a compasionate conversation expressing sypathy, understanding and a desire to follow through to aid in their recovery. In every case the victim was completely ignored.

    Can't we get off the "two witness" issue and focus on assisting the 'victims' to become survivors? Bill Bowen is doing a great job at what he does well. I hope he continues to do so. But I wish Bill could see the issues here.

    Thanks Rev for your emphasis.

    Jst2laws

  • reubenfine
    reubenfine

    This is hilarious. When I saw it was an email from Bowen, I just did a search for "Franz," knowing of course that he couldn't help but find a way to slam him. That's the only part of the email I read. Thank God I'm not on his emailing list. What a dweeb!

  • RevMalk
    RevMalk
    I don`t see Bill Bowen getting all the credit.There are a great many posts on this board to prove it.

    Why don't you take a count of how many times he's been mentioned and how many times the survivors have been mentioned, and then get back to us.

    There were also hero`s we didn`t see on that program like hawk and scully..

    I have no idea what they've done, but if they contributed, then yes they are to be commended. I'll tell you one thing Outlaw, you can track my posts, and you'll find I have complimented Bill more than I've criticized, and frankly my criticisms have been very restrained. I think once again you're jumping the gun in a situation you know nothing about.

    RevMalk you`ve got a hot coal up your ass when it comes to Bill Bowen..

    There may be some truth to this, but I didn't put it there. I inadvertently sat on it when I put my life and family aside to help him for close to a year....out of the kindness of my heart. Yes, that's right, I have a kind heart, no matter what you might think.

    The man has faults like everbody else,but he did get Silent Lambs this far..

    That's true, and I don't see anyone calling him Satan, people are giving their opinions, just like we have a right to, and just like he has a right to his. He's good at what he does (getting on tv), but that doesn't mean he's above criticism, where would you get the idea that he, or anyone for that matter is?

    He championed those who could not fight for themselves..Whether you like him or not,he has done his best to do the right thing...OUTLAW

    Bullshit! He's done alot, yes, but WE CAN FIGHT FOR OURSELVES! We're just as strong as you are, if not stronger. WE ARE THE SURVIVORS! And we may be glad he's here to help, but we're not helpless little lambs that need anyone to come save us! I resent the insinuation that I am too weak to fight for my own rights! Don't EVER look at any of us like that!

    I have nothing against you, really, but get that ridiculous thought right out of your head.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    RevMalk,

    I believe I am correct about what Bill Bowen is saying.

    In Bill Bowen's December 31st 2002 Letter to the Governing Body, Bill stated the following:

    "Why do you continue to hold to guidelines that were authored at his admission, by your biggest apostate? Ray Franz claims he wrote the directives on how judicial committees were to operate in the 1973 OR ["Organization"] Book. In the chapter, Safeguarding the cleanness of the congregation on page 175, he set forth directives that required judicial action against minor children for gross loose conduct or fornication, or is such that brings the congregation into a bad light in the community. This wicked directive has been used now for thirty years to punish children who were molested by charging them with wrongdoing for being involved in a sexual act. This directive even included non-baptized minor children, a directive that hurt so many children that it was finally adjusted in the mid 1980s. Why do you follow the directives of an apostate? This year children continue to be disfellowshipped after coming forward to report being raped and judicial committees are using guidelines written by Ray Franz? Do you believe Jehovah looks with approval when you shepherd the flock in this way?"

    Also, I would like to add my own 2 cents.

    I believe that Bill is trying to show the JW's the hypocrisy of the Watchtower Leaders.

    You see, Bill is basically saying: "The Governing Body claims that Ray Franz is the biggest, baddest, most evil Apostate ever, and yet they keep following Rules that this Apostate wrote!"

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 2 February 2003 1:40:17

  • RevMalk
    RevMalk
    You see, Bill is basically saying: "The Governing Body claims that Ray Franz is the biggest, baddest, most evil Apostate ever, and yet they keep following Rules that this Apostate wrote!"

    I get this part. I don't agree with it, but I understand what he's trying to do. It makes no sense though, and I'll tell you why. Yes, the society despises Ray Franz, but they believe he lost his grace with God, not that he never had it. To use this as a way out for the WT, would be admitting that Ray was not appointed by God in the first place. In other words, if they came out and said "We're changing this policy because we've come to the realization that it was written by an apostate", would mean:

    1) Admitting that Ray did not have the Holy Spirit when he served

    2) Admitting that every decision by a person that held any sort of position within the WT (including Elders) that have been DF'd are now null and void, because they too are not of God.

    3) Changing everything he ever wrote, and frankly, some of what Ray wrote IS THE TRUTH. You can't head up the writing dept for that many years and not hit something right.

    4) Admitting that God does NOT appoint it's servants, or at the very least, admitting that the arrangement is flawed.

    This just won't work, it's a waste of time, it's a waste of energy and it makes us look stupid, all of us.

    If they needed an easy way out, they'd just read the Bible and find new light, it's worked every time in the past, and it'd work now, they'd lose alot less R/F witnesses with new light than they would by admitting the list above and much more where that came from. I just don't see any of this doing any good.....it's only hurting alot of people, and it's causing divisions within the cause, and it's taking up alot of our time arguing about it, when we could be doing other things to support silentlambs. But in all honesty, if this is the way it's going, alot of us can't support Bill under these circumstances with clear consciences. Falsely accusing a person is just plain wrong, and accusing a person without any proof is just a wrong, whether Ray is this horrible person or not. You know, I heard a saying once:

    "Satan will tell you 1000 truths to get you to believe a single lie" - And one single lie is enough for me. (I'm not saying Bill is Satan)

    I just had no idea he was accusing the guy of these horrible pre-meditated crimes. I mean it's one thing to say he wrote the policy (which I'm not believing), but it's another to say he wrote this for this reason, and was not only involved in these things, but instigated them.

    UNDF'd.....I know you're a smart guy.....but be careful buddy, ok? That's some harsh unfounded garbage. Even if it wasn't garbage, he has no proof of these allegations, and you just can't do that.....

    I can't go along with this stuff.....These things that are being said and done are just wrong.

    Let me clarify again, because this is shocking news to me, and I apologize if I'm misunderstanding. Perhaps everyone understood and I'm just blind, but are you saying that Bill believes that Ray wrote this policy to cover up child abuse? Or that it was one of the main reasons? That he is the author of a policy that was meant to intimidate abuse victims into silence??

    I know Bill says that he (Ray Franz) was accused of Child Molestation in '69, and that's why he's doing this, but come on, sometimes you have to be real careful, and this is not being careful. He has to look at the bigger picture, and this is NOT going to be effective. If anything, they can be building a case of libel and slander a mile high, and they'll take their great big watchtower foot and just smash him and the cause right into the ground. Don't you think they're keeping records of everything he says? They're not just sitting there waiting for him to attack, they're not that stupid.

    he set forth directives that required judicial action against minor children for gross loose conduct or fornication, or is such that brings the congregation into a bad light in the community. This wicked directive has been used now for thirty years to punish children who were molested by charging them with wrongdoing for being involved in a sexual act. This directive even included non-baptized minor children, a directive that hurt so many children that it was finally adjusted in the mid 1980s.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    RevMalk,

    I agree with you, in that I don't see what good blaming Ray Franz is doing.

    You said:

    Let me clarify again, because this is shocking news to me, and I apologize if I'm misunderstanding. Perhaps everyone understood and I'm just blind, but are you saying that Bill believes that Ray wrote this policy to cover up child abuse? Or that it was one of the main reasons? That he is the author of a policy that was meant to intimidate abuse victims into silence??

    Let me explain first of all, that I don't know for sure what Bill is claiming, all I know is what he wrote in the E-Mails.

    I just re-read what Bill said:

    "he [Ray Franz] set forth directives that required judicial action against minor children for gross loose conduct or fornication, or is such that brings the congregation into a bad light in the community.

    Which is true, I believe, because I think I have seen the actual Quote from the Book, and I do know that Ray Franz said that he wrote that Chapter.

    Notice -- Bill did not say that Ray Franz had made that Policy in order to silence abuse victims.

    However, you've got admit that that was a pretty wicked and cruel Policy anyway -- to set up Judicial Committees to interrogate children to find out if they had committed "sexual sins" such as fornication.

    Then notice what Bill says:

    "This wicked directive has been used now for thirty years to punish children who were molested by charging them with wrongdoing for being involved in a sexual act. This directive even included non-baptized minor children, a directive that hurt so many children that it was finally adjusted in the mid 1980s."

    Bill says that the Policy that Ray Franz wrote has been used by the Watchtower Leaders to punish children. [I don't think Bill said that this part was Ray's fault]

    I don't know why Bill keeps mentioning Ray Franz. It doesn't make much sense to me. I might E-Mail Bill about that soon.

    RevMalk said:

    I know Bill says that he (Ray Franz) was accused of Child Molestation in '69,

    I didn't know that.

    and that's why he's doing this, but come on, sometimes you have to be real careful, and this is not being careful. He has to look at the bigger picture, and this is NOT going to be effective. If anything, they can be building a case of libel and slander a mile high, and they'll take their great big watchtower foot and just smash him and the cause right into the ground. Don't you think they're keeping records of everything he says? They're not just sitting there waiting for him to attack, they're not that stupid.

    I honestly don't believe the Watchtower Society would ever be stupid enough to try and take Bill Bowen to court for "slander" -- because then it would bring out A LOT of the Watchtower's dirty laundry.

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 2 February 2003 2:30:14

  • Cassiline
    Cassiline

    What amazes me is the original post in this thread by BB was three thousand eight hundred and ninety four words long. 3894!! One snippet, 30 words are cut down into two, (2) basically, Ray Franz. The entire focus of his letter was not RF but those affected by child abuse and comments about pedophiles.

    It seems as if the issue once again is clouded, the hard work accomplished by so very many is disregarded and thrown to the side to bash and forget the real issue, the children and survivors. In all this controversy of BB vs. RF it seems some forget those with feelings suffering from traumatic events in their life stopped to try to help by telling their story. People who know inside information ((shadow man )) risked being exposed and hated by family and friends to assure the truth is known. IMO this issue and most of those willing to voice their opinion have voiced it over and over, taking any chance they can to Bill bash, thusly putting the survivors and advocates in the background at times.

    What of them? How are we supporting them by continually focusing on this issue instead of RF vs. BB, every time the two names are mentioned in conjunction with one another or every time one may see a fit time to try and make it an issue? I think most here, who are willing have expressed how they feel about the issue. It has been discussed until the cows came home, were milked and then slaughtered. It seems as if this is being milked for every drop it can be to get your .02 cents in, no matter what that .02cents is, and in some cases having nothing to do with Ray Franz.

    Ok, so Bill believes one thing to be true and others believe something else or think it unfair to state what Bill thinks. Does anyone stop to think that this hurts those who spent so much time on this show to try and assure the truth is known and protect the children? That it hurts the survivors as well, when they pour their hearts out and one forgets this just to argue a point, which IMO will not change Bills mind whatsoever.

    The first comment in this thread focus on the survivors is what I believe many are forgetting for one reason or another. Lets focus on the survivors instead of making comments such as,

    Hawk, I haven't read this whole thread yet, but I have a word of warning to you. Quit making yourself so public. It's great you're helping with silentlambs, but he will cut you down for 'trying to take the limelight'. That was what happened to me.

    For crying out loud Hawkaw has started 31(at least 31, this is how many I could find doing a quick search) threads dealing with, abuse, pedophiles and silentlambs in the last 5 months alone. Who knows how many posts he has made concerning the issues. Why make these types of statements to someone who had always been doing such and has worked his ass off when he has NEVER even been a JW. Someone who may be, IMO hurting or angry, seeing his hard work take off in this direction, and not focusing on time, effort blood sweat and tears, personal investments of time and money to see the truth and lies exposed.

    I truly realize some have reason to be hurt and those who feel they have reason to be hurt by BB. But must at every juncture when he says the name Ray Franz or something we disagree with it turn into a flame war? Cant we try and focus on supporting and thanking the survivors and the advocates instead of trying to assure our personal agenda is met? For I do not believe any amount of name-calling or argument may change some opinions that have been formed about certain subjects. And if at any point it may seem an opinion can be changed at least try and take some of the animosity to a private level to save those investing their time and effort the pain of seeing their projects turned into a free for all.

    With this I extend my thanks and admiration for having the courage, tenacity and wherewithal to help make this story available to the public. Thank you

    Holly, Heather, Mike, and their families and friends who supported them in this endeavor. The Fifth Estate producers and Anchors. Hawkaw , Scully, Shadow man, Alan F, Bill Bowen, The Andersons, All advocates everywhere, Sources.

    All abuse survivors everywhere who are speaking out or who have or will to assure this is made public, and save children from a lifetime of pain.

    I also send my thoughts of peace to survivors everywhere who may still be silent survivors and may always be, to you all, please know that one day your pain will lessen and it will not always be raining tears in your worlds. The darkness will fade and the light will get warmer until you feel love and peace of mind surrounding you.

    Sorry If I forgot anyone, the show was moving, outright heartbreaking and my thoughts are jumbled at this time.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit