Bill Bowen talks about CBC Fifth Estate!

by UnDisfellowshipped 62 Replies latest jw friends

  • RevMalk
    However, you've got admit that that was a pretty wicked and cruel Policy anyway -- to set up Judicial Committees to interrogate children to find out if they had committed "sexual sins" such as fornication.

    I do agree this is not a good thing. BUT, if you can say that Ray Franz had these intentions then you can say that Bill Bowen may have and probably has been involved in these proceedings.

    As a matter of fact, I was emailed by a girl who claims this is exactly the case (this was not a molestation case). When she was 14, she claims Bill interrogated her beyond belief. She says he (and 2 other elders) wanted to know every dirty detail. How do I know she's telling the truth? I don't. And that's my exact point, you can't believe everything you hear. BUT, if she is lying, why would she have not lied about the case being about molestation rather than simple fornication? And furthermore, if Bill has been involved with interrogations of minors (and it'd be hard to believe in all those years he hadn't been), and he himself followed Ray's directives, well then he's about as big a hypocrite as they come.

    I'm not saying this is the case, I'm merely speculating. It was ok to speculate that Ray Franz has been involved in such cases, so why not Bill Bowen? He's got us convinced that in all the years Ray Franz served, he MUST have come across such cases, yet he'd like us to believe HE (BB) never has. WHAT???

    So what took him so long to come forward? What makes him better than Ray Franz if he followed the letter of Franz's written law to a "T" up until 2 years ago? Come on, what Bill did as an elder means nothing, and what Ray Franz did as an elder means nothing, because neither one is at this time, YET one is throwing accusations in the other direction, when he's guilty of the same things! Maybe not writing the policy but he sure as hell followed it!

    (I'm not being argumentative by the way, I just get excited, haha)

    Ray Franz's Policy does not specifically mention molestation cases, so to attribute his intentions in that direction is wrong no matter how you slice it up, and hypocritical, no matter how you look at it. He claims Ray wrote this directive knowing full well that the molestation issue was a problem back in 1973 when molestation was still hush-hush. Meanwhile, Bill Bowen FOLLOWED this directive knowing FULL WELL that molestation was a problem, up until 20 years AFTER Ray Franz left the Watchtower and almost 30 years past the time period the policy took effect. Why are we all so blind to these things?? Am I holding it against Bill that he followed these policies knowing the effects it could and would and has had on children? NO, he's 'repented', he's changed his ways. But I will sure as hell hold it against him if he continues to be a hypocrite. I apologize if I'm offending anyone, but these are the hard facts.

    unless of course Bill Bowen had no idea of these things. No idea of the effects of this policy, no idea that molestation existed within the organization, and no idea that the policy was in effect for 30 years. If that's the case, then he owes Ray Franz the biggest apology in the world, because the same could certainly be true of him, 30 years prior.

    RevMalk said:

    I know Bill says that he (Ray Franz) was accused of Child Molestation in '69,

    I didn't know that.

    Bill told me this on the phone, I 'might' have the year wrong, but it was somewhere in that period of time that he claims Ray was accused, and found to be innocent.

    I honestly don't believe the Watchtower Society would ever be stupid enough to try and take Bill Bowen to court for "slander" -- because then it would bring out A LOT of the Watchtower's dirty laundry.

    This may or may not be the case. It all depends on how much hassle he causes them. It may come about that they feel taking him out will be the best thing in the long run. If they come to the conclusion that this is going to get real bad (worse than it is now), then they might just take the gamble. Chances are it won't come to that, but it's always best to be careful of what you say and who you say it to, just in case, and that was my only point.

    Look, I'm behind Bill in this thing, I really am, but he's got to cut the shit. He takes something wonderful like the CBC episode, and he makes it filthy......and that's a bad thing. Be careful questioning him on the Ray Franz deal....I did that a time or two and you see where it got me.

  • Farkel

    Since no one bothered to attack Prisca's assertions, I must step forward.

    Prisca said:

    : My apologies to all the silent lambs out there, but Bill Bowen has done more to harm the cause than to help it. The sooner he loses his JW way of thinking, the better.

    Of course, Prisca has done SHIT to help any silentlambs, but feels more than qualified to pass judgement over one of those who's given over his life to that cause.

    Rather than saying it was her OPINION that Bill Bowen has done more harm, etc. she stated FLAT OUT that he HAS done more harm for them than good. Of course, no evidence is offered. I'm convinced from what I've seen and from what I know from all the players, that Bill Bowen has done more GOOD to help the silentlambs than anyone else on this planet. Yeah, Bill is a stubborn son-of-a-gun, and yeah, I don't agree with everything he thinks and has says. So what?

    I say this despite the fact that Bill and I disagree about his opinions regarding Ray Franz, but as Casseline pointed out, that is in fact, a minor issue and only gives fuel for losers like Prisca to fume over. Losers who do nothing but feel qualified to unqualifiedly and categorically judge those who do something.

    I'm sorry to have to say this Prisca, and I don't hate you, but you just get so out-of-line sometimes.


  • Cassiline

    I don`t see Bill Bowen getting all the credit.There are a great many posts on this board to prove it.

    Why don't you take a count of how many times he's been mentioned and how many times the survivors have been mentioned, and then get back to us.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Outlaw was speaking of this project, The Fifth Estate (Forgive me if I am wrong Outlaw). There are at least 10 threads started concerning this program. The search feature is disabled and I dont know the exact count. Bill is mentioned seldom in most Ive read. I may be wrong it could have changed since I last looked at some of the threads, but I cant find then all at this point for the above reason.

    Now if you are speaking of Bill and abuse in general how is he mentioned and why? Does he mention himself or is his name brought up and then argued about? Do some thank him? Perhaps this makes my point in the above post. Why are we continuing to argue about Bill when there are more important issues at hand? Put this children and survivors first.

    He championed those who could not fight for themselves ..Whether you like him or not,he has done his best to do the right thing...OUTLAW

    Bullshit! He's done alot, yes, but WE CAN FIGHT FOR OURSELVES! We're just as strong as you are, if not stronger. WE ARE THE SURVIVORS! And we may be glad he's here to help, but we're not helpless little lambs that need anyone to come save us! I resent the insinuation that I am too weak to fight for my own rights! Don't EVER look at any of us like that!

    Yes, we are survivors we are strong. Bill Bowen and others worked on the silentlambs issue then BB took off and made it public, BB is the person whose tenacity made this issue as known as it is now, world wide. Of course there were others who first spoke of the issue and others who advocate for survivors. It was him who did advocate, champion (defend, support, fight, amongst other meaning) survivors by getting this problem recognized as it is now. And some of those survivors have said and so say they spoke out on the subject because of his work. I count myself among those. No one is perfect we all make mistakes we all misjudge situations, we all mis-speak at times this should not make what we have accomplished as if it never happened.

    I am a victim advocate and there are victims then there are survivors. You must first face your nightmares sometimes before you are a survivor and at times one does need an advocate before they are survivors. At times victims cannot fight for themselves, they learn how to or lean on someone until they can fight for themselves, victims who become survivors. I am not saying that BB enabled survivors everywhere to become vocal, nor has he helped all survivors but he brought this issue to the forefront and should be thanked for that, IMO. I am also not saying that he is responsible for any person, then for those who give him credit for where they may be before the issue was so widely discussed. Also I am not saying that all survivors were victims before Bill came along, that is far from the point. But when reading his guestbook or posts here I have seen so many times, "I am here today and speaking about my abuse to help others because I found the website silentlambs"

    I strongly disagree with this comment,

    but Bill Bowen has done more to harm the cause than to help it

    For you would not be saying the word silentlambs if it were not for Bill Bowen. I do believe he coined the phrase "silentlambs".(Someone correct me if I am wrong, why do I ask, LOL) Sure the issue of abuse may have been addressed at a later date as widely as it is today if it were not for Bill. But the fact remains that its being discussed worldwide because of Bill Bowen. Where, how, why and by whom its discussed in the future is not known. Those who are involved behind the scenes and others may take their own directions and give it a different slant. More power to all and anyone who right now, or in the future is (or are) willing to give so much to so many strangers to assure that children everywhere are no longer hurt and the suffering stops.

    I forgot to thank all those who in the past discussed this matter at length in private and public.(You know who you are and I love ya for it) Those who wanted to get the idea discussed worldwide but could not for whatever reason. Or those who got the ball rolling in the general direction.

  • Prisca

    Simon et al.... you have mail

  • Simon

    prisca. I think your comments were a bit rediculous.

    I hardley think it's fair or reasonable to say Bill Bowen has done more harm than good for abuse survivors even if we may personally think that some elements of things (ie. the Ray Franz angle) are a mistake.

    Now, this subject has already been discussed to death, ad naseum etc... so unless anyone has anything new to say about it then I suggest we don't go over it all again and start falling out.

  • Simon

    hawkaw: as you know, the Bill Bowen / Ray Franz thing has been a hot topic on here for some time which is why unfortunately, people have picked up on one word / sentance and aren't looking at the biiger picture of what has been achieved.

    The program was fantastic and really shows how much work you and others have put into it.

  • Prisca
    Of course, Prisca has done SHIT to help any silentlambs

    Of course, Farkel knows everything that I do in my time offline with ex-jws, doesn't he?

    losers like Prisca

    Of course this isn't a personal attack, is it?

    edited to add:

    As for my statement regarding Mr Bowen....

    He has done damage for the cause in that those I've spoken to here in Australia don't want to be involved with anything associated with Bill Bowen. If ppl wanted to set up a SL Inc here in Australia, I'm sure they could with the help of Mr Bowen - but I'm yet to speak to someone who wants to be involved with Mr Bowen or the SL name.

    The cause isn't about Silentlambs Inc, it's about THE silent lambs ie, the victims/survivors of abuse who have been silenced. That's why the victims/survivors in Australia were NOT referred to in the Channel 9 "Sunday" programme as "silentlambs" but as "silent witnesses" - to clarify the distinction between SL Inc and the real victims/survivors.

    I would LOVE to be at the forefront of helping the Australian silent witnesses - but due to my family situation I am not able to. I work on helping those I can behind the scenes. I don't need public acculades for what I do, nor do I see the need to publicise who or how I help. But there are definitely ppl, including myself, who are trying to help the silent witnesses behind the scenes.

    Edited by - Prisca on 2 February 2003 6:3:23

  • ozziepost
    losers like Prisca


    Using insults like this doesn't enhance your argument. Quite the opposite. It's also bad manners as well as against the standards of this db.

    Be nice.


  • Simon

    Yes, Farkel - that too is out of order.

    I don't know why the two of you don't just take your personal battle offline and do it via email or IM or something.

  • Simon

    I'm not defending either one of you or taking sides as it's impossible to find where this goes back to (I suspect a long time ago on a forum far far away) and sometimes it's one who starts it and another time it's the other.

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