Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat 362 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Jeffro

  You're going round in circles. Already answered. If you want a better understanding of solstices, look it up.
  
• 

  Vintage

  There is a thread on this forum from ten years ago that covers much of the same information here presented. Here is the title of that thread.

  A JW apologist writes about VAT 4956
• 

  Jeffro

  In case there are any honest readers...

  From Wikipedia:

  Astronomical almanacs define the solstices as the moments when the Sun passes through the solstitial colure, i.e. the times when the apparent geocentric celestial longitude of the Sun is equal to 90° (June solstice) or 270° (December solstice).

  Note that the position of the sun on the June solstice is 90°. Here are the details for the sun on 29 June 568 BCE, 29 June 588 BCE, and 9 July 588 BCE (using Cartes du Ciel, all observations from midday in Iraq). As can be seen, the position of the sun is only correct on 29 June for both years. Hence, as previously explained, the assertion that 9 Simanu 588 BCE was 9 July is impossible.
  

  
• 

  Jeffro

  In my haste, I highlighted the wrong field in the previous images. The correct field is the Ecliptic longitude. As can be seen, these are still correctly around 90° on the expected dates for the summer solstice, but inaccurate for 9 July (even more so). I have retained the observations for midday in all cases, observed from Iraq. They reach exactly 90° by late afternoon on the required days. Note also that the declination (dDec) value reaches 0 on a solstice, and this value is also wrong for the required JW date.

  Astronomical almanacs define the solstices as the moments when the Sun passes through the solstitial colure, i.e. the times when the apparent geocentric celestial longitude of the Sun is equal to 90° (June solstice) or 270° (December solstice).

  For reference, I have also included the date for the winter solstice, showing 270° for the Ecliptic longitude on 27 December 568 BCE and 588 BCE, confirming the correct field is now shown.

  Summer solstices:
  

  

  Wrong JW thing:

  

  Winter solstices:

  
• 

  Jeffro

  Vintage:

  There is a thread on this forum from ten years ago that covers much of the same information here presented. Here is the title of that thread.

  A JW apologist writes about VAT 4956

  I checked that thread, but it doesn't mention solstices. Still worth checking out though. As usual, excellent comments from AnnOMaly.
  
• 

  Fisherman

  Jeffro

  Thanks for the data.

  How do you know or by what authority are the actual dates of the solstices for -568/-588?

  How is the solstice in vat 4956 extrapolated?

  (I think what you are trying to show is the mismatch between the scientifically established solstice for -568 (location ancient Bavel) and the other scientific solstice dated -588 for the same location compared to the extrapolated date of vat 4956 should correspond with or be in phase with the correct or actual solstice? In other words, using the scientifically established -568 solstice, vat 4956 solstice is in phase with 568?) The opinion of we JW is that the related vat describes -588. You have not replied to wt 2011 moon phases described in the vat in phase with -588 and out of phase with -568 in support of -588.

  Also since you like going off into tangents, show how you have answered my questions before and not where you've posted information claiming that the information answers my questions. Show how any disingenuousness asserted by you I have affects the validity of your information and also show the relevance of your remarks —now that we are were are wasting time with your personal feelings. These diversion tactics of yours evade the questions and attempts to color your argument the way you feel unless you can explain how you feelings substantiate the data. Let’s continue to waste time with fallacy on this posting your dumbass rhetoric and responding to it and stop focusing on the subject.
• 

  Jeffro

  See how the apologist just becomes more and more demanding no matter what is provided. But if you dare to ask for evidence that the Bible is ‘inspired’, he calls you deluded. 😂 🤦‍♂️

  Because the apologist worships the Watch Tower Society, there ‘must’ be something ‘wrong’ with the solstice dates returned by the astronomy program or the date given for the solstice in the astronomical diary. 🤦‍♂️ Therefore no amount of evidence will satisfy the apologist. Anything that disagrees with his precious Watch Tower Society conclusions will be tediously scrutinised ad infinitum, but the same degree of skepticism is not applied to his own position.

  And in addition to rejecting the rock solid dates for the solstices in both years, the apologist also now demands that I rehash the details for the lunar eclipses. 🤦‍♂️ However, others have previously shown that the Watch Tower Society’s claims that the lunar observations are ‘wrong’ for 568 BCE are entirely dishonest. The demanding apologist can do some work for himself for once and search for that existing information.
• 

  Jeffro

  Additionally, despite the apologist’s claim in defence of “wt 2011” that “moon phases described in the vat … out of phase with -568”, the November 2011 Watchtower acknowledges that “Scholars say that all these positions occurred in 568/567 B.C.E.”, and it is only The Watchtower’s unsourced assertion that “not all of these sets of lunar positions match the year 568/567 B.C.E.” Where is Fisherman’s dogged skepticism here? 😂
  
• 

  Jeffro

  Fisherman:

  How do you know or by what authority are the actual dates of the solstices for -568/-588?

  The following is provided for honest readers who might also want to know about the method used. I installed Cartes du Ciel, (the program used by the 2011 Watchtower ‘researchers’) and made the observations for the required dates, and provided screenshots. Physics determines the correct dates. One can take two approaches. If you know the solstice date already, you can start from there. But even if you don’t know the correct date, you can pick a date in the required year and check the values for the sun, observe the ecliptic longitude and declination for that date, and then adjust the date until the measurements are 90° and 0, pinpointing the correct date for the solstice. I chose to keep all the observations at midday, but the exact time of day can be refined to precisely match if desired.
• 

  Fisherman

  honest readers who might also want to know about the method used

  Thanks again for kindly posting the data and its source. State the facts and answer the questions if you like and let everybody believe what they like. Don’t get so upset and emotional about it.

  I don’t remember reading your solstice argument anywhere before but it has been many years since I’ve I really focused on this -607 topic which you are highlighting solstice . I have some questions about the computation and algorithm that derives the date of the solstice. Are these results written in stone or are there tolerances and variables of error and is the programming based on belief or fact? I am not attempting to undermine the integrity of the program. For example as you already know, we JW believe -607 based on our interpretation of Bible chronology not based on science or archeology although using them to try to give support to our interpretations and JW publish not only our beliefs but also how and why. I know in the past, WT challenged c14 dating and stand firm on Noah’s flood based on validation by JC vis-à-vis scientific interpretation of geology, etc.

  —But my above commentary is immaterial to what can be concluded from the evidence for and against -588/-568 which is my only interest under this thread.