WHEN people leave a cult...MAN landed on the moon? Or critical thinking......

by The Rebel 54 Replies latest jw friends

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    I believe anyone who has voluntarily left a cult has shown they can adapt to new solutions, and have used " CRITICAL THINKING" skills otherwise most would not have left.

    Yet I believe a safe place for support is still needed and this safe place i believe is searched for.

    Now I may not measure up to much in ways of education, but for me personally " critical thinking skills" = " New" a " new" way of thinking, that takes time for me the individual to be visual and to contemplate. And the more I read about " critical thinking," the more convinced I am that I can live with the ridicule of those that claim I do not possess it. Furthermore I would say those that criticise others " critical thinking skills," often luck the sensibility and thoughts to snore, spit, and fart....nor would they understand a room full of tobacco smoke and cheap booze...where " critical thinking " can often be found in its most profound, in the most sensitive poems and "pictures" that were ever drawn. Each has critical thinking.

    " critical thinking " has more going than meets the eye.

    So my O.P.....when the mind leaves the body we may be dead, but when alive, life is not only a matter of "our " superior " critical thinking" it's a matter of compassion, humor, and accepting no one can be expected not to voice there true opinion, whether they believe in "Islam " " Art" " Religion" or that "man "didn't " landed on the moon."

    The Rebel.

  • tiki
    Inte resting observation,rebel. I think of critical thinking as not accepting what you see or read or hear as factual...but to reflect on it, consider the source, and if the subject matter is of an academic or professional nature to determine if source material cited stands the test as verifiable. (something the wtbts refuses to do which is a red flag). You always have to consider the author and their objectivity...what is their agenda? To sell you a bunch of crap? To enhance you experience? Think things through...theres a lot of bs out there.
  • WTWizard

    We all need to continue critically thinking, even if it is not politically correct or even legal to openly debate. Otherwise, we will stagnate just one level beyond the washtowel and could regress to where we could become believing jokehovians again. This especially now that Saturn is about to enter Sagittarius again, this time until December 2017.

    It is up to each of us to decide what to believe and based on what information. Not only that, but we should learn for ourselves whether or not that information is reliable. Ask the questions, even if the answers are unknown. Did we land on the moon, or was it fake? Is the dollar stable, or will it soon become toilet paper? Was the holocaust real or fiction? For that matter, was the famine in Russia in the early 1930s real or fake? Is Jesus a real character, or just a fictitious character that is the archetype of the perfect slave? Do the research, and if anyone answers "That is offensive to ask that question", chances are even better that the official answer is a lie. And, designed to prevent the type of thinking that could lead you to become jokehovian-proof and never believe in that religion again, even if you do get forced back in through Scientology-style legal actions.

  • StarTrekAngel

    There is some truth to what you are saying. Critical thinking is definitely in short supply but at the same time, perspective and context can change the angle of reasoning.

    In the other hand, there are people whom sole purpose in life is to pick apart the belief of others. My boss at work, for example, can enter a debate of almost any subject. He spends most his days reading and reading, hardly sleeps. Unfortunately, unless he started the discussion, he tends to not contribute anything meaningful to the discussion but rather centers in picking apart everyone else's statements to judge them in isolation. I would not have a problem if he disagrees with me. I can say white, he can say black, not an issue there. I have a problem though when you rather make a goal to say is not white but I am not going to bother showing you why I believe is black. Some people have left the cult but they don't realize when they have become a cult themselves. I don't mind if someone has a belief that is somewhat unfounded or is a grey area. However, if you are willing and ready to discuss it, don't walk away in the uncomfortable moments. It does nothing for your cause.

  • millie210

    The Rebel, you have touched on the concepts that make the world go round!

    The challenge is that ALL people think they are thinking people. That is good because it would be one of the worlds saddest moments if people wandered around thinking "oh my God - I cant think - Im just a waste!" What good would that do, really?

    So instead everyone wanders around picking and choosing a set of beliefs for themselves. People who think very concretely and are soothed by that, find more concrete things to adopt as their compass.

    People who think more like a kaleidoscope, seeing the universe in beautiful fragments that their mind seeks to make whole, use that process to steer by.

    I am leaving out the myriad ways of interpreting the world that lie in between those two but the idea is that both types are necessary.The world needs builders, scientists and teachers. The world needs art, music and visionaries just as much.

    One style moves the world forward, the other holds the ground gained.

    Perhaps more when you consider that the latter is less common. It is not less common merely because of its own rarity but because the structure of society is not geared to reward that thinking. Parents dont reward the dreamy child because the immediate day to day tasks of life demand the opposite.

    Basically the result is creative thinking is squelched in favor of the more predictive, efficient "now". As a result, this dreamy interpretive child has to be possessed of an incredibly strong sense of self to hang on to their thinking style in a world that is geared differently.

    That is what creates the rarity and is the reason why we see more of the concrete, literal thinkers. It isnt a matter of better/worse of good/bad or smart/dumb. That is the point missed by many.

    Every so often you will see someone who combines both. The rarest of the rare and in many cases, able to appeal to both thinking styles.

    Bertrand Russell is one. Analytical philosopher, mathematician and possessed of a "beautiful mind".

    What is interesting about him (well besides everything) is the process of how he got to where he did not where he landed.

    That process is the thing that needs to be honored and where your statement applies

    The Rebel
    Yet I believe a safe place for support is still needed and this safe place i believe is searched for.

    I am forced to work with my logical brain for business purposes. This isnt the real me. Id much prefer writing poetry. Im sure many of us do what we have to not what we want to though, right? To keep anchored in my own reality, I keep my favorite Bertrand Russell quote behind my desk. It is the first thing people see when they sit down in front of me. They might as well know who they are dealing with. Ironically I hung it there in 2007. I wouldnt leave the JWs for another 5 years. Obviously for me, the "truth" is where you find it - even then

    here it is,

    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper. -Bertrand Russell

  • Viviane

    Having critical thinking skills has nothing to do with tobacco smoke filled rooms (what kind of cigars are in your humidor? Mine has at least 8) or liking booze (cheap or expensive) or having or not having compassion.

    Having it pointed out that you lack critical thinking skills is no more a ridicule than pointing out that someone doesn't know how to play golf.

    Attempting to insult those that correctly pointed out your lack of critical thinking skills as lacking the sensibility to snore, fart or spit only shows that you're engaging in am emotional response to an issue about facts and logic and falsely attempting to equate the two in a general sense using an invalid specific example, thus demostrating the very lack of critical thinking skills you claim to have.

  • Viviane
    The challenge is that ALL people think they are thinking people. That is good because it would be one of the worlds saddest moments if people wandered around thinking "oh my God - I cant think - Im just a waste!" What good would that do, really?

    False dichotomy. Recognizing you lack a skill does not mean you therefore think you are a waste. This is a perfect example of an opportunity to correctly blend critical thinking with compassion. If, for instance, someone lacked critical thinking skills by say, using a false dichotomy and then thought they were a waste, a person with good critical thinking skills would realize that isn't true and offer to help with that and point out that he or she isn't a waste but just needs to learn a skill.

  • StarTrekAngel


    I think I have at least three situations in which you pointed out the same things and when I either offered an apology or a clearer explanation you banished. You have a tendency to drop this kind of statements and disappear. Based on your last post here, I would expect you would hang around and help us see what we lack. Thus applying your compassion.

    In another note, I don't see how you can compare critical thinking with a skill like playing golf. If there is anything that shows me your lack of both, critical thinking and compassion (on your own words), is this last idea. For once, thinking, critical or not, is what makes us humans as a whole but also what makes us unique among other humans. It forges a lot of what we know as life. Playing golf is entertainment for the most part. Learning golf is not nearly as difficult as critical thinking. Not even ballpark (sounds familiar? I still waiting for you to accept my apology on that other thread, which would not bother me if I didn't respect you). Having critical thinking skills is a matter of perspective. If I am talking to a golfer and I have knowledge of golf, I can discuss golf matters with him but if I don't l don't know golf, then I don't have the skills to critically think about golf. Therefore, telling someone that they don't have critical thinking skills is an absolute statement and will always be offensive. An emotional answer is expected because you just offended the very nature of self. Telling someone "you don't know shit about golf" if it is clearly evident by his game, is different.

    Like i said in another thread, for a rocket scientist, the rules of orbital mechanics are common sense.

  • Viviane

    Saying I disappear is utterly untrue.see moon landing hoax thread for example. Maybe I just got bored or, you know, had work to do. But disappear? As cofty would say, bollocks.

    Gold and critical thinking are similar in that they are both learned skills. You inability to parse that obvious similarity has nothing g to do with my compassion and any statement you make regarding that is and will be certainly not burdened by knowledge.

    Rather than be offended when it is (rightly) pointed out that you don't have critical thinking skills, you've the option to fix that as you choose. Whether you do or not is up to you and no one else. Any further further potential offense you may take at reality is up to you. It's got nothing to do with my compassion and everything to do with you.

  • Viviane
    Gold = golf in the above. Also, I do happen to be on vacation, so if I don't respond, well, I'm likely inside the caldera of a volcano.

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