Now that you aren't a JW anymore....
That was a good thought about Adam not being offered immortality and there being no mention of it.
As far as blaiming God for things that are going on in this world, well I must tell you I really can't say I blame God, I do think that God has done some things that were not very productive. An example is the flood what did that accomplish long term? Nothing really wickedness still prevails does it not?
Destroying Sodom and Gomorah another example of a short term move.
What has he done in our day to even prove to us he exsist?
Why did miracles cease to continue?
What happened to divine intrevention?
Last question what are your thoughts on deism?
What a mess of variety here. If we still believe the Watchtower we are dogs returning to our own vomit.
I personally wonder if we as a whole are not more diverse in our beliefs now than before we became JWs. I personally am in flux. I see good things in JW’s that originally attracted me, but too much wrong to overlook. I haven't left yet but wonder should I wait for them to change? A good change started in 1970’s but since 1980 we took a strong turn to the right. I would be long gone but there are a lot of good people here and a few I feel compeled to protect if I can. But I believe in God and the Bible (although Farkel about destroyed me with his ‘arbitrary god’ post last week). I likewise believe there must be a congregation of God, at least united in some common beliefs and bonded in love and faith.
It is hard to withdraw from one extreme without tending to swing to the other extreme. I don’t know where I’m am for sure, but I know I’m swinging.
For me there is no religion that meets the standards that Jesus
set. I will not join any church. I still believe in God and also that parts of the Bible do contain good things. I am waiting for the Christ, this is what I do.
If anything I am now Atheist. If by some chance God does exist he certainly doesn’t get involved or interfere and there fore may as well not exist. Listed below are some reasons
1) At all levels of life from microbes to man it is dog eat dog. Eat or get eaten. This is the way nature works and always has. In other words nature is a bitch
2) The Bible just doesn’t cut it as an infallible message from God to his creation. (Too ambiguous, vague and open to interpretation) besides what seem to be contradictions as to creation and the flood.
3) Just because we don’t understand a process ie Life, the big bang, etc doesn’t mean we have to invent an explanation ie God It would seem there are laws of physics we still don’t know or understand. It would be arrogant to think otherwise.
4) Every ones understanding of God is different. According to there own desires. There fore god is man made. (and man proceeded to make god in his image) The same mind that creates God has the ability to manufacture self-perceptions, dreams, and imaginings even cures for illnesses and cause illnesses.
"But it does move"
Yes God did have all the fish singing praises for the time noah was locked up in the arc , and he did destroy all human life except Noah and his family.
So again I say, what did he do to make the people after that turn to their own desires. Jim he (the divine)is there 24/7 no days off, never closes for lunch, has an open door policy and has no record or abandoning anyone.
You mention Sodom & Gomorah...as another example...and I say Ok he got rid of the bad element.....ask yourself.....did he put that element there to begin with......where did this “element” originate from......
“What has he done in our day to even prove to us he exsist?”
JIM you ask about our day........well I could say ..your here, thats a start......... he is with you for if he was not.......you would not be breathing........
You asked about miracles ceasing......... are you sure they have ceased....... I hear of miracles all the time........miracles cant happen , if you have no faith they can........there are mystics that still cure people...... Padre Pio is an example of this.
What happened to divine intrevention?
there is still divine intervention and guidance, in my opinion. Our lifes have just become desensitized to looking at it. We dont all ~see ~the subtle energies that are around us , as we have been hardened by this world/system. A spiritual life needs not be one where “praise god or Jesus” is our every word, but that type of faith is the key. Jesus told all his onlookers again and again about faith, just faith the size of a mustard seed will take down a mountain. Some of his last words were about those being happy who beleived that did not Physically see.
We all have a guidance systems built in.......for most JWS. it is handed over at the front door of the Kingdom hall and doesn’t get returned unless we fight to get it back. But it is there to be developed .
Deists believed that true religion is natural religion. There were Christian deists who argued that most of Christianity, especially the Revelations, was not in condriction with deism. However, most deists felt organized religion was false.
These deists were greatly influenced by the rationalisim of the Enlightement era. Since large organized religions such as Christianity and Islam tell us in books and sermons what is true, we are unable to find the truth through perception. They believed that God wants all of his creations to be happy, and has given them virtue as a means to obtain that. Because of this, he makes the knowledge needed for happiness universily accessible. Organized religion often times sets aside only certain people to have this knowledge, and the deists believed evreyone had to right to it.
Another sect of deism believed that God is "absentee", and leaves us alone on Earth to make our own way. He gives us the virtues and access to knowledge mentioned above, and then lets us make the most of his gifts
If this is the deism you speak of I would say I agree organized religion is false from what I have seen. I see there an outcry today tho from those who want this to not be the case. I do believe God has an uncondiotinal love and desire for us to be happy, but we need to do OUR part and not lay it off on him. I agree we do have the knowlege or at least the tools available to get the knowlege for the things that will make each of us happy. Since we are all in the same image , yes i would say we all do have a right to this knowlege.
I wont go so far to say God leaves us alone completley to make our own way, we have weather , we have natural disasters, we have illness, all of which we dont control. I would say we cocreate reality with God tho and the lessons we learn are for the managing of this thing we have learned as JWS doesn’t exist...and that is SPIRIT.
Spirit and the managing of it , is about the only purpose I can come to understand , for man being here on earth. If we can learn this it will helps us when we are not physcial any more since the spirit is still there. Think about all you know regarding Jesus and Paul ..they both refer to a better life ..... not in the flesh tho..........but in the spirit......
tell me your thougths on this........
Island woman, if you have found no religion that meets your standard... the challenge is yours....start your own *S*
Hippikon, how do you come to the conclusion that everyone's understanding of God is according to their own desires? It certainly may be, perhaps even in majority of cases. However, just as an example there are those who call themselves Buddhists and at the same time believes in God, and as you may know Buddhism is about getting rid of desires. By your reasoning in point 3 wouldn't it be arrogant to invent explanations for the understanding of others, even if it can work logically? It is merely a possibility.
Intro: These are very breif notes. They do need expanding. What I ment was it would be arrogant to think we know all there is to know about Physics and Nature. JWs are suposed to be the most "United" in there beliefs but even amoung JWs there are variations on Gods personality! At the end of they day we pick a religion that suits us or gets us out of a hole.
I decided to go back into everything i was told to avoid in the hall and in the bible. . .
i have read a variety of "holy" books, to compare beliefs, so i guess this makes me gnostic for i believe in a higher power. . .
i have also been drawn into the occult from the age of 5, never scared but always fascinated by it. . . .
i guess if there is a "label" for me it would be, a born-again pagan,
"man is responsible solely for the voice of his own conscience"
Hippikon: "Unity is irrelevant." ;)
Of course, that shows JWs as a group do not get it, but my issue is with your last statement. I still agree with one thing they used to say in a public talk, that being the idea that true seekers need to be honest, humble and hungry. Honesty will allow you to be unbiased in your thinking process, humility will prompt you to search as it points to how little you know, and the hunger will provide the drive for that search. I think this kind of paints a picture of the guidance system Stephen speaks of. Believe it or not, we don't all look for what's personally agreeable.
As far as my beliefs I believe in some kind of creator that started the processes of physical life. As to (His/Her) exact characteristics or level of involvement in human affairs I dont know.
I think the bible has some good advice in it, and is 'inspired' in the sense that the message in the gospels is definitally something that is timeless and amazing. I am not sold on the bible being inerrent however, I am not saying it does have errors but I think many people fail to realize the difficulty in reading a book that was written in a different, ancient language to a different and ancient culture. Basically because the bible has to be translated into our language without the context that it was originally written in, people tend to see the bible as saying what they want it to say.