What are hippies smoking these days? Let me explain a few things to everyone: Let's chew on this first: What if America wasn't the world's only superpower? Say Russia won the cold war, or China was in charge. The world would be a much better place then, wouldn't it? No big bully US pushing people around, right? Ask anyone from East Germany who climbed over the Berlin wall (you can't talk to all of them, a few of them we're shot trying to make it over) what they think about it. Ask anyone else who lived under the Iron Curtain too. Ask the free Taiwanese what they would think of a Chinese superpower. Hell ask the Chinese themselves, especially the ones who seal themselves in cargo containers and suffocate coming to the "Big Bully" USA. I don't know about you, but the USA is my "big bully" of choice. Things could be worse. This whole argument regarding why we're using diplomacy with N.Korea and not with Iraq is just ridiculous. Put down the hash-pipe and think about this amazing new revelation: America HAS been using DIPLOMACY with IRAQ for the last 12 years! We've been using sanctions, UN inspections from 1991-1998...etc..etc...and so far the only thing that seems to get Saddam's attention is dropping precision-guided munitions near his Winnebego. We had James Baker in 1990 attempting to use diplomacy with Saddam. We've had the UN on Saddam's ass for years, but nothing but SHEER BRUTE FORCE has ever worked Think about this, why are UN inspections even happening now? Is it because Saddam out of the goodness of his heart let them back in? Wrong! It's because we threatend to kill his ass personaly! Food for thought folks. For the last 50 years N.Korea has been contained through diplomacy alone. Obviously, this tactic does not work with Iraq. So, it's back to the old status quo. N.Korea has nukes that they can hit Seol with (and just to be assholes about it) Hiroshima or Nagasaki as well. Seeing what jerks they are, why would we allow someone (Saddam) who has shown his willingness to use WMD on all his friends to get his hands on a NUKE? Another thing: Oil powers the world folks. So when someone does threaten the world's oil supply (like Saddam did in 1990) then THE WORLD is put at risk. It's just that AMERICA is the only country that has a military that can really do anything about it. If you think you have a better idea at stopping Saddam from doing this again without using force, by all means, tell the State Department your idea...I'm sure they'd like to hear it. Maybe they could drop you with your "No Blood for Oil" sign and your acoustic guitar into baghdad and you can stage yourself a little protest on Saddam's behalf. Good luck! Personaly, I'll take some US Marines with me. Oh, and if we're after Saddam's oil, why didn't we just take it in 1991, when we had nothing but desert seperating us from Baghdad? For a bunch of greedy imperialist, we sure do some stupid shit! We freed Kuwait and left. Doh! Now we got to go back and do it again, and this time risk WMD strikes, maybe even nukes? Doh! Doh! Next time I get some gas, I'll say a prayer of thanks to all the American boys in the desert risking their life for my 10 gallons of cheap gas. And for the really philosophical: It's not that we all don't know how bad war is. We do. It's nothing new and noble to say "War is Hell". Ask any vet this and they will tell you the same. Really! It's just that in some parts of the world they don't seem to understand that simple fact, and resort to terrorism and violence to get things done. Here in Amercia you can write your senator and sing really catchy protest songs and people sometimes PAY ATTENTION to you and you can actually change YOUR GOVERMENT. Really! It happens! If you're an enviromentalist you can live in a tree for years and no one will shoot you and kill you to get you out of it...Don't try this same thing in a country such as N.Korea, China, Iraq, Iran...etc. But honestly, these tactics don't work against other goverments. They'll get you killed. So don't cry when we have to bomb Saddam or whoever else. Holding hands across America doesn't prevent airplanes from flying into buildings. Just doesn't work. We don't want to kill innocent Iraqi civilians. Do the crack-smokers and hippies really think this? We try everything in our power to minimize this. I'm sorry folks, but a fact is a fact: War works. It got Saddam out of Kuwait, Hitler out of Europe, the Japanese out of the Pacific, and stopped a whole host of other bag guys from doing bad things. I wish the world worked differently, but it doesn't. And to all you WW2 vets, I'd like to apologize on behalf of some of the people in this country who obviously haven't learned the painful lessons of your past(s) and can't seem to find the honor and self-respect in themselves to stand up for what's right like you and others did so long ago. I know none of you wants anymore wars. I also know you sacrificed so much only to see all of us so unwilling to do the honor and job of doing the same ourselves. I'm ashamed. --Rich
Quit smoking crack...the USA is not a bully!
by dolphman 68 Replies latest jw friends
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William Penwell
The Americans back countries that are in their best political interest. A case in point is that the USSR during the Second World War was the USA and British alley. They talk about the Germans for all their terrible atrocities to humanity but the USSR was just as guilty.. Yet the USSR was OK at that time because they were our alleys??? If the USA wants to invade Iraq because of wanting someone in their that would support US policies great but I wished they would get off their "moral high" horse. The US has supported foreign governments that are as bad as Hussein or worse.
Will
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Crazy151drinker
William,
The U.S. hated the Soviets. Patton for one wanted to keep the ball rolling and get rid of them. And lets not forget that Hitler started the whole thing. Being that Hitler attacked both the Soviets and the Brits, it was in thier best interests to work together. If Hitler and Stalin had not gotten into it, odds are we would not have kicked Germany out of Europe. Hitler wasted MASSIVE forces attacking Russia. So in hindsights, we need to thank the Russians for taking so many causualites....
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freedom96
Good post dolphman!
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William Penwell
Still the facts were that Joseph Stalin murdered more of his civilians than Hitler did but it was alright that we supported Stalin for our political gains at the time. I am not saying sometime you have to make a packed with the devil for selfish gains but don't take a moral high ground when your hands are no less blood guilty. When we support these types of repressive governments even for a short term gain, we have to take part of the blame for what they do. Why doesn't the US at least be honest and tell us the real reason why they want to invade Iraq?
Will
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IslandWoman
Hi Dolphman,
WWll opened our eyes to honor and pride, the Vietnam war opened our eyes to humiliation and worse: political betrayal from our own leaders. There were/are WWll vets, like my father, who were against the Vietnam war.
We live in a time when politicians no longer have the advantage of leading a people who look upon their President and his cabinet with rose colored glasses. The Vietnam war was a tragedy for my generation and for the country. I believe the awful prospect of being caught again in a war which is more politically motivated than defensively, is causing quite a bit of consternation. In addition, there is the possiblity that war in that region can easily escalate.
The Administration must establish credibility and my gosh saying:
"Osama Bin Laden is wanted dead or alive," is fine for a cowboy but not the President of the United States, (it made him feel good and it made many Americans feel good but it also showed that this man is more child than grown-up)
Calling North Korea a part of the Axis of Evil, I am sure did not go far in making that country want to listen to the U.S., (diplomacy not a forte here)
Having to recall ships after a knee jerk reaction to the crash of a U.S. spy plane off the coast of China, made him look out of control, gun happy, or worse controlled by the gun happy,
The public display of machismo within the Administration with regard to Iraq and then the also very public knowledge that cooler heads (the Secretary of State) fortunately prevailed and moved to involve the U.N., did not instill confidence in this President,
The sudden turn of attention from Afghanistan to Iraq without continued dialogue with the American people about what in the hell is going on there such as the failure to ensure that Afghanistan is politically stable but instead the U.S. forces are allowing war lords to take over sections of that country where again women are being forced to wear the burka and young girls are being visibly discouraged to go school, (yet the President would have us believe he will stabilize Iraq after the war?),
and an almost endless list of other gaffs and knee jerk reactions do not for credibility and trust make.
I don't know about anyone else but for the President of the United States to have repeatedly said at Republican fund raisers and other functions that the 9/11 tragedy was for him like winning the trifecta because it made it much easier for him to get various parts of his agenda through, was more than bad taste, it was un-American.
It's not a lack of patriotism, imo, that causes many to question the war in Iraq, it's that we have grown wary of our politicians. Blame them for not being honest with us, not us for insisting that they prove they have stopped lying!
IW
Edited by - IslandWoman on 2 January 2003 16:17:12
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Spartacus
I can't comment a lot right now but Excellent post Dolphman!
WP said:
"The Americans back countries that are in their best political interest."
So what? What country does not? WW2 was dog eat dog war, what do you expect? Talk about someone sitting on a Moral High ahz Horse, it's you!
WP said:
"Yet the USSR was OK at that time because they were our alleys???"
No one said that the USSR was OK but you, get off you Moral High Horse! So your fight the USSR too, would you have felt better if the Allied countries turned on the USSR? Look, Canada was allied with the Russians too, funny how you left out Canada. Talk about BIASED.
Edited by - Spartacus on 2 January 2003 16:33:27
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William Penwell
The sudden turn of attention from Afghanistan to Iraq without continued dialogue with the American people about what in the hell is going on there such as the failure to ensure that Afghanistan is politically stable but instead the U.S. forces are allowing war lords to take over sections of that country where again women are being forced to wear the burka and young girls are being visibly discouraged to go school, (yet the President would have us believe he will stabilize Iraq after the war?),
Yes but the suppression of woman and children is OK as long as they support the US policies there?? The only reason why Bush wants to stabilize the Middle East is for selfish gains. Yet many innocent Americans will lose their lives over what? Bush goes in there and the war escalates to one of a Christian crusade, Christians against Muslim, then Bin Laden will be the one to win.
Will
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Analysis
This is not a White / Black issue.
At times the US wears a White Hat and at Times it is Black Hat.
The Black Hat US started the Spanish American War and the Mexican Wars. What was done to the Indians by Andrew Jackson was also a very dark period in US History.
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William Penwell
Spartacus,
You are right we Canadians were involved in the War to so I was not just blaming the US for everything. No I am not the one taking the Moral high ground here. I am not hypocritical and saying how evil this country is or that country is when we are all blood guilty. When someone else has to suffer for our selfish gains, that is what is immoral. Yes you can call me a hypocrite because I live in this country and benefit by our gains over that last hundred years. I would rather see that we as humans put our Ideological differences aside and help bring in policies that would benefit all humankind.
Will
Edited by - william penwell on 2 January 2003 16:54:3