jasnowidz.....I looked at that site for 15 minutes and found a bunch of errors about witness beliefs/doctrines on it.
By it's own logic, why should I believe anything else that site or religion says?
SPAZ
Judge Bans Shunning
by Farkel 83 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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SPAZnik
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gumby
Well....if....this becomes a big issue.......how well this will fit into dubology about the 10 horned beast turning on religion. The only thing is.......the beast is supposed to attack Christendom first. How will they explain that one???????
I wonder how many bethelites "leave" after being involved with these cases...that move even them to leave, because of the harshness shown in these cases?
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Roddy
>>"In summary, shunning must cease immediately because these children have already been harmed by the practice. Though the Jehovah's Witness Church has the right to shun certain individuals, in this case, the practice has damaged small children. <<
That should also put a chill on the WTS insistance in baptising minors thereby forcing them to live by rules and regulations they don't know about, forced upon them contrary to their emotions, and entirely at the cold whim of elders and higher-ups!
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Roddy
Shunning is the WTS' only teeth and claws. Remove them and from the command chain beginning at the WTS ivory tower and down, even down to the elders, become nothing but paper tigers!
Power to the people!
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UnDisfellowshipped
Really, REALLY, GREAT NEWS!
Here are some very damning Quotes from Watchtower Publications (and the Official Watchtower Website):
The Watchtower November 15th 1952 Issue:
Questions from Readers
In the case of where a father or mother or son or daughter is disfellowshiped, how should such person be treated by members of the family in their family relationship? - P. C., Ontario, Canada.
We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. "Thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him to death with stones, because he hath sought to draw thee away from Jehovah thy God, . . . And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is in the midst of thee."-Deut. 13:6-11, AS.
Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws.
The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship. However, God's law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation, and this despite the fact that the law of the land in which we live requires us under some natural obligation to live with and have dealings with such apostates under the same roof.
God's law does not allow a marriage partner to dismiss his mate because his mate becomes disfellowshiped or apostatizes. Neither will the law of the land in most cases allow a divorce to be granted on such grounds.
The faithful believer and the apostate or disfellowshiped mate must legally continue to live together and render proper marriage dues one to the other. A father may not legally dismiss his minor child from his household because of apostasy or disfellowshiping, and a minor child or children may not abandon their father or their mother just because he becomes unfaithful to God and his theocratic organization. The parent must by laws of
God and of man fulfill his parental obligations to the child or children as long as they are dependent minors, and the child or children must render filial submission to the parent as long as legally underage or as long as being without parental consent to depart from the home. Of course, if the children are of age, then there can be a departing and breaking of family ties in a physical way, because the spiritual ties have already snapped.
If children are of age and continue to associate with a disfellowshiped parent because of receiving material support from him or her, then they must consider how far their spiritual interests are being endangered by continuing under this unequal arrangement, and whether they can arrange to support themselves, living apart from the fallen-away parent. Their continuing to receive material support should not make them compromise so as to ignore the disfellowshiped state of the parent. If, because of acting according to the disfellowship order of the company of God's people, they become threatened with a withdrawal of the parental support, then they must be willing to take such consequences.
Satan's influence through the disfellowshiped member of the family will be to cause the other member or members of the family who are in the truth to join the disfellowshiped member in his course or in his position toward God's organization. To do this would be disastrous, and so the faithful family member must recognize and conform to the disfellowship order. How would or could this be done while living under the same roof or in personal, physical contact daily with the disfellowshiped? In this way: By refusing to have religious relationship with the disfellowshiped.
The marriage partner would render the marriage dues according to the law of the land and in due payment for all material benefits bestowed and accepted. But to have religious communion with the disfellowshiped person - no, there would be none of that! The faithful marriage partner would not discuss religion with the apostate or disfellowshiped and would not accompany that one to his (or her) place of religious association and participate in the meetings with that one. As Jesus said: "If he does not listen even to the congregation [which was obliged to disfellowship him], let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector [to Jehovah's sanctified nation]." (Matt. 18:17, NW) Hurt to such one would not be authorized, but there would be no spiritual or religious fellowshiping.
The same rule would apply to those who are in the relation of parent and child or of child and parent. What natural obligation falls upon them according to man's law and God's law the faithful parent or the faithful child will comply with. But as for rendering more than that and having religious fellowship with such one in violation of the congregation's disfellowship order-no, none of that for the faithful one! If the faithful suffers in some material or other way for the faithful adherence to theocratic law, then he must accept this as suffering for righteousness' sake.
The purpose of observing the disfellowship order is to make the disfellowshiped one realize the error of his way and to shame him, if possible, so that he may be recovered, and also to safeguard your own salvation to life in the new world in vindication of God. (2 Thess. 3:14, 15; Titus 2:8) Because of being in close, indissoluble natural family ties and being of the same household under the one roof you may have to eat material food and live physically with that one at home, in which case 1 Corinthians 5:9-11 and 2 John 10 could not apply; but do not defeat the purpose of the congregation's disfellowship order by eating spiritual or religious food with such one or receiving such one favorably in a religious way and bidding him farewell with a wish for his prosperity in his apostate course.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Watchtower July 15th 1963 Issue, Pages 443-444:
"In the case of the disfellowshiped relative who does not live in the same home, contact with him is also kept to what is absolutely necessary. As with secular employment, this contact is limited and even curtailed completely if at all possible."
"We should not see how close we can get to relatives who are disfellowshiped from Jehovah's organization, but we should 'quit mixing in company' with them."
"What if a person cut off from God's congregation unexpectedly visits dedicated relatives? What should the Christian do then? If this is the first occurrence of such visit, the dedicated Christian can, if his conscience permits, carry on family courtesies on that particular occasion. However, if his conscience does not permit, he is under no obligation to do so. If courtesies are extended, though, the Christian should make it clear that this will not be made a regular practice. . . . The excommunicated relative should be made to realize that his visits are not now welcomed as they were previously when he was walking correctly with Jehovah."
Page 446:
"If the excommunicated husband insists on offering prayer at mealtimes, the dedicated members of the household would not say "Amen" to the prayer, nor would they join hands as some have the custom, as this would be participating spiritually. They could bow their heads and offer their own silent prayer to Jehovah."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Watchtower September 15th 1981 Issue:
Page 26:
God had purposed that families should be united in true worship, so religious beliefs would not create any divisions. But incidents occurred in which religion became a family issue. One of these was when Korah, Dathan and Abiram rebelled. Jehovah confirmed that he was dealing through Moses and Aaron, not through these religious rebels. Then Moses told the people to get away from the rebels tents. What would the children and households of Korah, Dathan and Abiram do? Would they put loyalty to family ahead of loyalty to Jehovah and his congregation? Most of those closely related to the rebels put family before God. Jehovah executed these relatives along with the rebels. Num. 16:16-33.
Page 29:
The second situation that we need to consider is that involving a disfellowshiped or disassociated relative who is not in the immediate family circle or living at ones home. Such a person is still related by blood or marriage, and so there may be some limited need to care for necessary family matters. Nonetheless, it is not as if he were living in the same home where contact and conversation could not be avoided. We should keep clearly in mind the Bibles inspired direction: Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person . . . , not even eating with such a man. 1 Cor. 5:11.
"Christians related to such a disfellowshiped person living outside the home should strive to avoid needless association, even keeping business dealings to a minimum."
Page 30:
Great care needs to be exercised that a persons situation as a disfellowshiped sinner is neither overlooked nor minimized. As the sons of Korah well demonstrated, our chief loyalty must be to Jehovah and his theocratic arrangement. We can be sure that when we uphold his standards and prefer association with his organized people, rather than with wrongdoers, we will have his protection and blessing. Ps. 84:10-12.
Normally, relatives are often together at meals, picnics, family reunions or other social gatherings. But when someone has unrepentantly pursued sin and has had to be disfellowshiped, he may cause difficulties for his Christian relatives in regard to such gatherings. While they realize that they are still related to him, they do not want to ignore Pauls advice that faithful Christians should quit mixing in company with an expelled sinner.
There is no point in looking for some rule as to family members being at gatherings where a
disfellowshiped relative might be present. This would be something for those concerned to resolve, in keeping with Paul's counsel. (1 Cor. 5:11) And yet it should be appreciated that if a disfellowshiped person is going to be at a gathering to which nonrelative Witnesses are invited, that may well affect what others do. For example, a Christian couple might be getting married at a Kingdom Hall. If a disfellowshiped relative comes to the Kingdom Hall for the wedding, obviously he could not be in the bridal party there or give away the bride. What, though, if there is a wedding feast or reception? This can be a happy social occasion, as it was in Cana when Jesus attended. (John 2:1, 2) But will the disfellowshiped relative be allowed to come or even be invited? If he was going to attend, many Christians, relatives or not, might conclude that they should not be there, to eat and associate with him, in view of Paul's drections at 1 Corinthians 5:11."Would upholding God's righteousness and his disfellowshiping arrangement mean that a Christian should not speak at all with an expelled person, not even saying 'Hello'? And we all know from our experience over the years that a simple 'Hello' to someone can be the first step that develops into a conversation and maybe even a friendship. Would we want to take that first step with a disfellowshiped person?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Watchtower January 1st 1983 Issue, Page 30:
"It is to illustrate that if someone is disfellowshiped, he must at the time have had a truly bad heart and/or been determined to pursue a God-dishonoring course. Peter said that the condition of such a person is worse than before he became a Christian; he is like 'a sow that was bathed but has gone back to rolling in the mire.' "
"Of course, the grandparents have to determine if some necessary family matters require limited contact with the disfellowshipped children. And they might sometimes have the grandchildren visit them. How sad, though, that by their unchristian course the children interfere with the normal pleasure that such grandparents enjoyed!"
"We just need to go out of our way to be warm, genuinely interested and, above all, spiritual."
Page 31:
"But human emotions and attachments can have a powerful effect, making it difficult for people to act in accord with the disfellowshiping decree if a relative is involved."
"... the expelled mate has proved that he is not the sort of person that we want to be around... So maybe a visit can be made when the disfellowshiped one is known to be out of the house."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Watchtower April 15th 1988 Issue:
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The Watchtower April 15th 1991 Issue:
Former friends and relatives might hope that a disfellowshipped one would return; yet out of respect for the command at 1 Corinthians 5:11, they do not associate with an expelled person.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Our Kingdom Ministry" August 2002 Issue:
"The bond between family members can be very strong. This brings a test upon a Christian when a marriage mate, a child, a parent, or another close relative is disfellowshipped or has disassociated himself from the congregation."
"How to Treat Expelled Ones: God's Word commands Christians not to keep company or fellowship with a person who has been expelled from the congregation"
"Jesus was... instructing his followers not to associate with expelled ones."
"This means that loyal Christians do not have spiritual fellowship with anyone who has been expelled from the congregation. But more is involved. God's Word states that we should 'not even eat with such a man.' (1 Cor. 5:11) Hence, we also avoid social fellowship with an expelled person. This would rule out joining him in a picnic, party, or trip to the shops or theatre or sitting down to a meal with him either in the home or at a restaurant."
"What about speaking with a disfellowshipped person?"
"A simple 'Hello' to someone can be the first step that develops into a conversation and maybe even a friendship. Would we want to take that first step with a disfellowhipped person?"
"The fact is that when a Christian gives himself over to sin and has to be disfellowshipped, he forfeits much: his approved standing with God;....sweet fellowship with the brothers, including much of the association he had with Christian relatives."
"Former spiritual ties have been completely severed. This is true even with respect to his relatives, including those within his immediate family circle....That will mean changes in the spiritual fellowship that may have existed in the home. For example, if the husband is disfellowshipped, his wife and children will not be comfortable with him conducting a family Bible study or leading in Bible reading and prayer."
"The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home"
"It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative."
"Loyal Christians should strive to avoid needless association with such a relative, even keeping business dealings to an absolute minimum."
"Sometimes Christian parents have accepted back into their home for a time a disfellowshipped child who has become physically or emotionally ill. But in each case the parents can weigh the individual circumstances."
"Will he bring 'leaven' into the home?"
"Cooperating with the Scriptual arrangement to disfellowship and shun unrepentant wrongdoers is beneficial."
"After hearing a talk at a [Jehovah's Witnesses] circuit assembly, a brother and his fleshly sister realized that they needed to make adjustments in the way they treated their mother, who lived elsewhere and who had been disfellowshipped for six years. Immediately after the assembly, the man called his mother, and after assuring her of their love, he explained that they could no longer talk to her unless there were important family matters requiring contact. Shortly thereafter, his mother began attending meetings and was eventually reinstated. Also, her unbelieving husband began studying and in time was baptized"
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waiting
Hey Farkel,
Thanks for this information - and I've responded to you on the Steve Hassan thread about another matter - please look?
Hey Undis,
Thanks for all the WT quotes! I'm forwarding this whole thread to another person who's very interested in this situation from a legal aspect - all this info is great!
Thanks again.
waiting
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morrisamb
This is a really great thread! Thanks for posting the articles Undisfellowshipped.
This shunning thing is the real reason I left the Witnesses in '85...not because I couldn't wait to "sin"! I just could not rationalize shunning my siblings any longer since I was a sinner myself.
Now my siblings and I are very close and we don't recognise such words...shunning..what the f*%!? Who's going to tell us who we can talk to?
The next delemma we needed to solve was how we would handle Witnesses when our Witness mother passes on. I told Mother one of her Witness "Sisters" can go up and read scriptures (wear a head covering, as if I care) representing her faith (as we respect her right to believe as she does and have a funeral in accordance with that faith), but absolutely NO MALE ELDERS OR THE LIKE!
I said, "your four kids are the most important people at your funeral and no way is some Elder going to give your talk to comfort us when he can't even say hello to us!!"
This bothered me for YEARS until I figured out this solution. Mother is okay with this. By the way, the service will be at the funeral home, no way at the Kingdom Hall.
All of us here know what shunning is like, and it is a horribly unchristlike behaviour, if you ask me!!!
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waiting
Hey Donald,
Merry Christmas to you & all your family! Actually, I didn't realize that your mother was still a jw - and I'm quite impressed with her free spirit thinking to have a sister/sisters speak at her funeral - no matter where it's held. Sounds like a fine solution to me - congratulations!
You *could* designate that any who are participating in the practice of Jehovah's Witness Shunning will have to sit in the last row of seats in the funeral home. I am assuming your mom might not go along with the idea of requesting any that shun not show up, as they are being shunned by the surviving family.
It's good that your family is still intact. Congratulations!
waiting
ps: FINALLY received your book! Will start shortly on it with my yellow highlighter.
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morrisamb
Hey Waiting, hope you have a great holiday too!!
I know where you're coming from with the shunners sit at the back idea, but I don't think legislating decency of character works!! I think anyone who showed up at my mother's funeral would probably pity us and offer us a hand shake...or is that a pity-shake?!
Actually my mother suggested just having a private funeral and not inviting anyone because of the shunning possibility. I'm thinking, invitation only...so that someone who never even met her wouldn't show up!
My mother sometimes is hilarious...she said, an Elder probably wouldn't want to give the talk any way, if all your gay friends show up. I said, "I can't believe you said that! Do you think Jesus didn't speak to groups that included fags?" She apologized and said she wasn't thinking straight! (ha ha, no pun intended!)
PS. Please let me know what you think of my book! Thanks
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TIMBO
I can certainly relate to this situation. I was df'd for just over a year. I am the father of four now. At the time we only had 3 children. My wife and her family completely treated me like shit. I was not invited to any dinners. They went on the family vacation to Florida without me. Of course I was supposed to just accept this as normal. I "asked" for it. My kids started really getting bad off. I had enough. I got reinstated. Now I'm "inactive." I go to an occasional meeting to pacify the wife.
This organization is scary though. It can truly ruin a person's life. I can't live "MY" life. I have to be "in" this to have my children. My wife and I have been on shaky ground for some time. We almost divorced a few months ago. I can't go there, b/c if I do, she will certainly get the children and I can just kiss them all goodbye.
It's hell!..They have a LOT to pay for.