by Yizuman 91 Replies latest jw friends
Jonadab
I am working on a reply to Simon.
21 December 2002 14:27:45
With all respect, doesn't this answer my question?
If they really are gods visible organisation shouldn't you be able to list a lot of things off the top of your head? Should you have to work on it or think about it for days?
You should not have to go and research which doctrines haven't changed or if there is anything they have got right.
"You should not have to go and research which doctrines haven't changed or if there is anything they have got right."
Ok, which iz it? Are we encouraging witness TO research their beliefs? Or are we encouraging them NOT to research their beliefs?
"doesn't this answer my question?"
I thought the question was:
Could you name a few provabe things that the WTS has been right and consistent about with regards to belief and doctrine?
Not:
HOW FAST, off the top of your head, could you name a few provabe things that the WTS has been right and consistent about with regards to belief and doctrine?
I guess the question has now been clarified?
Whether or not it takes a few days to come up with a reply, doesn't negate the initial question, does it?
Placing a time limit on any question requiring proof sounds limited or limiting, to me.
In my mind, anything "provable" will require work.
And I'd imagine such work takes time for anyone with a witness lifestyle.
I'm interested in Jonadabs reply to the first of these questions whether it takes him two minutes, or two weeks.
I might lose interest after that, mind you.
imo finding "provable" beliefs and doctrines, in any religion, takes time.
Actually I might even be of the opinion that finding "provable" beliefs and doctrines, in any religion, is impossible.
However, I haven't been able to prove that to myself yet.
I just started and it might take time. Does that make me wrong?
SPAZ
I'm sorry that some of you seem so impatient. I spend very little time on the internet. The majority of my time is taken up with family and theocratic responsibilities, as well as secular employment. Perhaps a quick answer would have been best as I really haven't had time these past few days and I doubt very much that anything I have to say now would be met with any appreciation.
I will say that our understanding and knowledge in most fields of study has been progressive. Look at how far science and medicine has come in the last 100 years or so. Where would we be if Louis Pasteur hadn't made his discoveries regarding bacteria? You could make lists of who did what and discovered what for the next year and not be done. The fact remains that we don't just sit down and get it right, all of it, the first time.
Look how truth was revealed progressively by Jehovah regarding the seed of the woman as mentioned at Genesis 3:15. Abraham was told that it would come through his line. Later Isaac and Jacob had the same promise related to them. Later still David was told that the promised seed would come through his lineage. Daniel didn't understand things he wrote about. "Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand." (Daniel 12:8) Jesus told the apostles that "It does not belong to
YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction". (Acts 1:7)
Look where mankind went spiritually after the death of the apostles. "Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction."(2 Thessalonians 2:3) False religious teachings made their way into the Christian congregation and remained there through the Dark Ages, the Middle Ages, the Reformation and on into the era of the Higher Criticism. Also came The Communist Manifesto and atheism. This period brought with it belief in the immortality of the soul, hellfire, purgatory, indulgences, predestination, the Trinity doctrine, a division of clergy and laity, and many other unscriptural teachings. The Reformation did nothing to correct this situation. All it ended up doing is breaking free from papal authority. It kept most of the teachings of the Catholic Church.
This is the climate from which C.T. Russell and others had to start from. How could you expect them to sit down and get it all right from the start? Even brother Russell had to acknowledge that. In 1882, C.T. Russell wrote: "The Bible is our only standard, and its teachings our only creed, and recognizing the progressive character of the unfolding of Scriptural truths, we are ready and prepared to add to or modify our creed (faithbelief) as we get increase of light from our Standard." (Watch Tower, April 1882, p. 7). Did they believe that they had all the answers, the full light of truth? To that question Brother Russell pointedly answered: "Certainly not; nor will we have until the perfect day." Frequently they referred to their Scriptural beliefs as "present truth", not with any idea that truth itself changes but rather with the thought that their understanding of it was progressive.
The Watchtower of July 1879 said: "Truth, like a modest little flower in the wilderness of life, is surrounded and almost choked by the luxuriant growth of the weeds of error. If you would find it you must be ever on the lookout. If you would see its beauty you must brush aside the weeds of error and the brambles of bigotry. If you would possess it you must stoop to get it. Be not content with one flower of truth. Had one been sufficient there would have been no more. Gather ever, seek for more."
These are just a few truths we still hold to. There are many others, but I'm not going to list everything for you. Do your own research. Don't just look for the differences between now and then. Brother Russell was humble enough to know that he didn't know it all and that truth would continue to be revealed as time went on. I'm sure that if Brother Russell were alive now he would willingly accept the progressive changes that have been made. Christendom's churches will admit on one hand that many of their celebrations and doctrines have no support in scripture, but do they abandon these and follow what the Bible teaches? No. They still cling to many of the same doctrines they taught during the Dark Ages.
Think to about Jesus illustration of the 'Wheat and Weeds'. (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43) The difference between the two wasn't going to be discernable immediately. During a period of time the difference would become apparent though. This took time for both groups to grow and show themselves for what they were. This too shows that things would be progressive and not immediately discernable.
I fully realize that this post will not be acceptable to many. I never thought it would be. I'm sure that it will be met with criticism. There are those out there would also argue with the fact that 1+1=2. I once met a man in field service, a school teacher mind you, that argued with my wife and I about the existance of the tree in his front yard or whether we were real or not. In his mind the senses could fool you and he even went so far as to saying that he may not even exist. What foolishness.
We are living during a time where prophecy is being fulfilled, whether you choose to believe it or not. Many of you were once dedicated, baptized Witnesses of Jehovah. No one twisted your arm to go through this. You took a vow which some of you have willingly broken and now morn the consequence(disfellowshipping) of your actions. The time has come to quit 'sitting on the fence'. Either you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses or you are not. Those of you who are sitting on the fence now are going to have to make up your mind one way or another. If this new program to contact the inactive is a way to determine which side you are on it was bound to come sooner or later. This choice had to be made many times before. There are numerous accounts in the Bible to back this up.
Jonadab,
took a vow which some of you have willingly broken and now morn the consequence(disfellowshipping) of your actions.
I for one am not disfellowshipped, although I'm sure there are many here that either have or haven't been disfellowshipped who don't believe that they have willingly broken their vows. There are very few people here in mourning. Most are overjoyed to be free from cult behavior. The problem is that the Governing Body betrayed us.
However, I think I know how to add. How would you have reacted in my case? (I posted earlier but you didn't respond). I was told I needed to lie and violate my conscience to be in good standing. Please add that up for me. I applied Jesus' counsel and demanded an apology, which didn't come. Elders all down the line goose-stepped in unison. How do you add that up? Please tell me what it adds up to. It's pretty easy, and I'm sure you can figure it out since I see you know what 1+1 equals. My good name was slandered to an entire body of elders without proof. What does that add up to?
I'm sure you doubt the facts, so I'll make you the same deal. Email me or respond here if you care to take my challenge, and if you can show me where I'm wrong I'll give you $1000. If you can't, you can give me $20 and write a letter to the society and tell them of their error and to apologize to me like any good Christian would. How do you like those odds? Looks like 50-1 to me. Try to get them in Vegas.
Of course, your conscience might keep you from gambling, which I could understand. Then maybe you'd do it out of love for me and what's right, huh? Maybe, but I doubt it. Not one elder cared, nor did Brooklyn, and I'm betting you don't either. I'm betting you will back the society in the face of facts. Put up or shut up!
Edited by - reubenfine on 24 December 2002 0:50:54
Edited by - reubenfine on 24 December 2002 0:51:36
I'm even willing to bet that you aren't a serious witness. Witnesses don't have access to older Watchtowers, for obvious reasons. Anyone that was associated like I was for 40 years can attest to this simple fact, yet you quote Russell twice from the 19th century. Has You Know made a comeback??
Jonadab, you said:
Even brother Russell had to acknowledge that. In 1882, C.T. Russell wrote: "The Bible is our only standard, and its teachings our only creed, and recognizing the progressive character of the unfolding of Scriptural truths, we are ready and prepared to add to or modify our creed (faithbelief) as we get increase of light from our Standard." (Watch Tower, April 1882, p. 7).
(emphasis added)
Jonadab, the thing is, the Bible was not their only standard ! (and even if it was, this doesn't mean their interpretation was or is anymore correct than anyone else's !(For God's sake, I could claim to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave, does this make it so?) Look at what data they based beliefs on:
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*** Thy Kingdom Come (copyright 1891) (1904 edition -- Millennial Dawn, vol 3) p.342 ***
[Note: not available on 1993/1995/1999 CD-ROM]
So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year B.C. 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years from the above date, B.C. 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years B.C. plus 1874 years AD. equals 3416 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1874 was the chronological beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the Bible testimony on this subject...
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=41810&site=3 Pyramids Jonadab ! No wonder Rutherford had a Pyramid at his grave site. This is "progressive light?"
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Jonadab, I for one have absolutely no fight with you. I believe that you are a man of worth for bothering to spend your time here. And most everyone here has been where you are, so they are not all bad as the WTS makes them out to be. My problem, as is the problem for alot of the posters here, lies with the WTS, not with its members. I am not shunned because I was never baptized, but I have seen the needless hurt caused to my own family members. My JW sibling used to always claim the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland couldn't be true Christians because they would never impose the hurt that they were imposing on each other if they were in the truth. Later, her and the JW community imposed an emotional hurt on another family member that rivaled that of the Catholics. And now I witness it again with my young nephews and nieces. Brutal hurt. Life is too short, too precious for this kind of treatment to one another in the name of religion. And the WTS has the audacity to claim this is Jehovah's will ? If this is the truth, you can have your truth. For this certainly is no God of love. Your WTS lies to you. I quote you:
Jesus told the apostles that "It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction". (Acts 1:7)
This, Jonadab, is what I've been trying to say all along, "it does NOT BELONG to you (us) to get knowledge of the times which the FATHER has placed in his own jurisdiction."
Edited again yet becuz I caint spill or du english
Edited by - deddaisy on 24 December 2002 1:47:15
Edited by - deddaisy on 24 December 2002 1:53:38
You took a vow which some of you have willingly broken
Jonadab: It disappoints me, but somehow doesn't surprise me, that you would make such an unequivocal statement. I, as well as many many others in this forum, were baptized before the WTS changed the baptismal vows to include loyalty to the organization. We, at least, could leave without breaking any vows. As for others:
No one twisted your arm to go through this.
Are you really that unaware of the religion you practice, with its social and emotional coercion? Wake up, man, wake up!
and now morn the consequence(disfellowshipping) of your actions.
I, for one (as for so many others here), not only don't mourn being disfellowshipped, but rather, I THANK GOD for it.
John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
And you, Jonadab, would do well to consider:
John 9:41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
Respectfully,
Craig
You spoke of people saying crazy things, for instance not acknowledging things that were there. Jonadab, I once offered to Witnesses at my door, the scripture:
Revelation 19:01
They read it out of the NWT, and said, "well I don't know what it means, but it's not what it says."
edited due to rambling.
Edited by - deddaisy on 24 December 2002 3:37:58
Edited by - deddaisy on 24 December 2002 10:27:45
ruebenfine said:
How would you have reacted in my case? (I posted earlier but you didn't respond). I was told I needed to lie and violate my conscience to be in good standing. Please add that up for me. I applied Jesus' counsel and demanded an apology, which didn't come. Elders all down the line goose-stepped in unison. How do you add that up? Please tell me what it adds up to. It's pretty easy, and I'm sure you can figure it out since I see you know what 1+1 equals. My good name was slandered to an entire body of elders without proof. What does that add up to?
I'm sorry rueben, but I can't offer any comments on a judicial case about which I have no knowledge. I couldn't comment on a situation where I didn't know the stories from both parties and it really isn't my place to make a judgement either. You're right about one thing though... I'm not a betting man. Not even if I was offered the winning ticket. You're wrong about a couple of things.
First, I do care about what you went through. To know that you are innocent and have your good name slandered is not an easy thing to bear. To seek help from elsewhere and not to find it can be devastating. I have no idea how long this went on or to the extent it affected you, but I am aware that things of this nature do occur from time to time. If it didn't then the elders would be perfect people and there would be no need of Appeals Committees. The fact of the matter is that elders have a serious responsibility before Jehovah and to take it lightly or to abuse the position of responsibility that has been placed upon them is serious indeed.
Second, I am a serious Witness. The Watchtower quotes I made came straight out of the Proclaimers book. I do have an extensive collection of Watchtower publications dating back to Studies in the Scriptures, though. I am 3rd generation in the truth, by choice. I am well aware of our history and the changes that we have gone through.
deddaisy said:
Jonadab, I for one have absolutely no fight with you. I believe that you are a man of worth for bothering to spend your time here.
Thanks!
Pyramids Jonadab ! No wonder Rutherford had a Pyramid at his grave site. This is "progressive light?"
As I mentioned above I have an extensive collection of Watchtower publications, so I am very much aware of information relating to the Great Pyramid in Brother Russell's writings. To make a slight correction, it was Russell who had a pyramid at his gravesite, not Rutherford. I'm sure that's what you meant anyhow. The idea that the Great Pyramid was God's witness in stone was a popular notion at the time. It came from the British Israelite movement. No, this was not progressive light. The fact that this notion was later rejected does show that progressive light.
jv 200 14 "They Are No Part of the World"
This, Jonadab, is what I've been trying to say all along, "it does NOT BELONG to you (us) to get knowledge of the times which the FATHER has placed in his own jurisdiction."
May I respectfully disagree. If were not meant 'to get knowledge of the times' then why does the Bible have so much chronology attached to its prophecies? Why did Jesus give his disciples such a detailed sign of his future presence? Why was Daniel given the information regarding the appearance of the Messiah in his 70 weeks of years prophecy? Why give all this information if we were never supposed to know the answers?
Daniel 12:4, 9, 10 states: "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant."..... And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.
So you see, it was not Jehovah's time at this point for his people to understand the words Daniel recorded here. It was for a future time. When it was Jehovah's will that it be understood then, as was recorded above 'the [true] knowledge will become abundant'. We are living during this time period now. This knowledge wouldn't be given to all though. Only those 'having insight' would be given the ability to understand. It would be withheld from those deemed wicked.
Revelation 19:1After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: "Praise Jah, YOU people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God,
I assume that you quoted this scripture because it refers to a great crowd as being in heaven. Let me quote the Insight book...
it-1 995-6
GREAT CROWDAn expression that, in itself, is quite common in the Christian Greek Scriptures. "Great crowd(s)" is sometimes used with regard to the large groups of persons who heard Jesus Christs public teaching. (Mt 14:14; 19:2; 20:29) After the vision of the destruction of the symbolic Babylon the Great, the apostle John heard "what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven." (Re 19:1) At Revelation 7:9, however, "a great crowd" is mentioned whose identification has particularly been a matter of keen interest.In this chapter, the apostle John first refers to the sealing of 144,000 slaves of God "out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." (Re 7:2-8) After this, he saw in a vision "a great crowd" out of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. These ascribe their salvation to God and to the Lamb as they stand before Gods throne. They have come out of "the great tribulation," they serve God in his temple, and he spreads his tent over them. All their hunger and thirst are to be ended and every tear is to be wiped from their eyes as his Son (the Lamb; Joh 1:29) guides them to the waters of life.Re 7:9-17.
Just because this scripture mentions a great crowd in heaven doesn't mean that it is the same great crowd referred to at Rev. 7:9. I think that you already knew that though and you were just yanking the poor brothers chains. Shame on you. lol
onacruse said:
Jonadab: It disappoints me, but somehow doesn't surprise me, that you would make such an unequivocal statement. I, as well as many many others in this forum, were baptized before the WTS changed the baptismal vows to include loyalty to the organization. We, at least, could leave without breaking any vows.When I spoke of vows I was referring to the one you made to Jehovah when you dedicated your life to serve him in prayer. Do you still feel that you are serving Jehovah with your whole heart, mind and strength?
ruebenfine said:
Has You Know made a comeback??I am not You Know. I have posted here before under a different name, but it was quite some time ago and only 2 or 3 times. I'm sure that if I mentioned my former name it would not ring any bells of recognition with anyone.
