Jesus Sacrifice - How Stupid and Illogical

by MrMoe 139 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • rem
    rem
    Matthew 7:6
    "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
    (Whole Chapter:
    Matthew 7 In context: Matthew 7:5-7 )

    That makes us pigs, I guess.

    These folks clearly don't want to have anything to do with God, they hate Him and everything that represents Him

    I clearly want nothing to do with Zeus and Gorf. Oh yeah. That's because they don't exist either. But you are wrong about the hate part. I don't hate fictional characters. I do hate what many who represent fictional characters have done, though.

    They do not want to go to heaven. That is their choice.

    I also have no desire to have sex with 72 virgins in the Islamic afterlife. I believe in life before death.

    There's nothing that we can do or say to change their minds. Not even God can change their minds.

    Then god is definitely not omnibenevolent, nor is he omnipotent. It's a logical contradiction.

    Your intelligence feels extrememly insulted by the fact that you once believed them and cannot believe you actually believed them in the first place. So you believe no more

    I'm sure that theory sounds perfectly plausible to you, but it is demonstrably false. The reason I and most other atheists on this board do not believe is because of lack of evidence... not because of a knee-jerk emotional reaction.

    I wish you all good luck in your endeavers as you go on with life.

    Thank you, and same to you.

    rem

  • rem
    rem
    Bigotry didn't come to mind when reading his post. Maybe these were honest observations on his part

    I don't see how you could have missed the bigoted comments. I even highlighted them for you.

    You should have addressed your concerns with something a little more constructive. "Um, yeah. You're an asshole."

    I responded to FS's post with the dignity it deserved. If FS would have provided any evidence for his asinine claims, then I would have addressed them. He didn't, so all that was left over were unsubstantiated negative stereotypes. Thus, the smart-alec comment.

    rem

  • Yizuman
    Yizuman
    Wait a sec, buddy. Personally, if God appeared right now and explained his purpose and basically made Himself known, I'd do whatever I could to please Him. So an "unbeliever" does not automatically fall into all the categories you mention above.

    But you already know he's not going to do that. Even if He did, what truely makes you think you will do whatever you could do to "please" Him? (That reference there makes me sick, I'm sorry. He's not interested in the desire for you to "please" him, based on the choice of words you have made. Rather, he wants to have a personal one on one relationship with you. He's not interested in "religion" such as working your way to earn your salvation in order to "please" Him. He desires to save you from sin, but you must also have the same desire to be saved from sin.)

    Romans 11:6
    And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    Ephesians 2 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

    God showed his power many times throughtout the old testament, such as God lead Moses and his people out of Egypt. They saw God parted the waters and they crossed, they saw God closed the waters and drowned Egypt's army. They all saw the plagues and diseases that was upon egypt. They watched all the firstborns die throughout egypt, let alone saved the ones who had their doors marked with the blood of the lamb as the angel of death passed over them. They were fed mana and water that sprang from the ground for them to drink. They saw God turned moses staff into a snake while the Pharoah's wizards turned theirs into snakes and Moses' snake swallowed them all.

    All the while and even after all they have seen, man still harden their hearts against God. Man are unsatisfied with anything and everything. Even when Moses lead his people across the river, the Egyptian army in hot pursuit, man complained that God has failed them as they are about to be slaughtered by the army and said that Egypt was a much better life for them than being dead in the desert.

    Even when Moses left the people to go up to the mountain to receive God's laws, people complained that life where they were is awful and Egypt was better, then later said Moses is dead and God has failed them. So they said, "Let us create a new god, one that we know will never fail us" and they created a COW and worshipped it. They even killed a human being on it as a sacrifice.
    Then Moses returns and sees what they have done, you know what he did next, he smashed the stone tablets and as a result, the earth opened up and swallowed all those who turned their backs on God, (especially those were ungrateful of everything God has done for them) sparing those who wanted nothing to do with their activities.

    Jesus showed his miracles to the people. He healed the sick, raised the dead. He walked on water, he turned water to wine. Man still hearten their hearts and they arrested him, turned Him over to the Romans, they begged for the life of a murderer to be spared and left Jesus to rot in jail. They watched Jesus being crucified and they cheered when he was dead. They even mocked Jesus and said, "If you are truely the Son of God, spare yourself and come down from the cross! Heal thyself!"

    Even when Jesus rose from the dead and 500 witnesses saw him after the resurrection. Many still did not believe and hearten their hearts against God. The disciples performed miracles even long after Christ returned to heaven, man still didn't believe.

    Finally, Jesus himself said....

    John 4:48
    "Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."
    (Whole Chapter: John 4 In context: John 4:47-49)

    It's hard for me to grasp the concept of the God in the Bible, but that doesn't mean I don't believe. I'm just waiting for the time to come when all will be known - then I'll know for sure what and how to believe. Just seems to make more sense to me that way, instead of trying to interpret writings that are claimed to be inspired by God, but knowing mankind has been deceiving since day 1....

    God is hard to understand because we lack the one thing that will help us understand God and his Word, The Holy Spirit.

    John 14:26 " 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

    2 Timothy 3:16
    All Scripture is God­breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
    (Whole Chapter: 2 Timothy 3 In context: 2 Timothy 3:15-17) (Greek: Godbreathed means inspired by the Holy Spirit)

    1 Corinthians 2:14
    The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    (Whole Chapter: 1 Corinthians 2 In context: 1 Corinthians 2:13-15)

    Before I open the Bible, I pray that God send the HS to help me understand His word and if I have trouble understanding any particular passage that I read, who do I go to ask what it means? I go to the source, the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit is my teacher and I rely only in Him to help me understand His word. I do not rely on man at all. He answers me every time.
    Give the HS a shot dude, what have you got to lose?

    But if you prefer to see to believe than read His word. Then, just wait for the Tribulation to come. From there you can decide what to believe. But it won't be fun at all during the next 7 years.

    Yizuman

  • Yizuman
    Yizuman
    I'm sure that theory sounds perfectly plausible to you, but it is demonstrably false. The reason I and most other atheists on this board do not believe is because of lack of evidence... not because of a knee-jerk emotional reaction.

    My only guess is whether or not you believe what you see during the Tribulation. That is if you survive the Rapture while on the road and don't get hit by a Mack truck with no driver behind the wheel. Or that a Mack truck doesn't plow into your house and run over you.

    From there, what you see and decide to believe will be up to you. I wish you luck from there.

  • rem
    rem
    Before I open the Bible, I pray that God send the HS to help me understand His word and if I have trouble understanding any particular passage that I read, who do I go to ask what it means? I go to the source, the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit is my teacher and I rely only in Him to help me understand His word. I do not rely on man at all. He answers me every time.
    Give the HS a shot dude, what have you got to lose?

    Tried it, dude. Didn't work. I finally realized that the HS was just something that some ancient goat herders made up and wrote about in a book. Remember, almost all of us used to be Christians... even after leaving the Borg.

    What have we got to lose? A whole lot of time for one... sanity for another.

    My only guess is whether or not you believe what you see during the Tribulation. That is if you survive the Rapture while on the road and don't get hit by a Mack truck with no driver behind the wheel. Or that a Mack truck doesn't plow into your house and run over you.

    LOL You are too funny, man. Yeah, I'll be waiting for that Tribulation... and waiting.... and waiting... say, we've only been waiting for 2000 some odd years so far! Mack truck.... priceless hahaha

    rem

  • Yizuman
    Yizuman
    Tried it, dude. Didn't work. I finally realized that the HS was just something that some ancient goat herders made up and wrote about in a book. Remember, almost all of us used to be Christians... even after leaving the Borg.

    What have we got to lose? A whole lot of time for one... sanity for another.

    Works for me because I believe. Doesn't work for you because you don't believe. Big difference there.

    I know it works because He's there for me time and time again. I'm a living testament to that fact. I once had the exact same problem you did long before I gave my life to Christ. I couldn't understand the bible at all, never did at that time, so I gave up on it. Until after I accepted Christ and then for the first time in my life, I finally understood the bible far more better than I ever did in the past.

    LOL You are too funny, man. Yeah, I'll be waiting for that Tribulation... and waiting.... and waiting... say, we've only been waiting for 2000 some odd years so far! Mack truck.... priceless hahaha

    Oh it's closer than we think. In fact, remember the prophecy regarding to the rebuilding of the city of Babylon? Check this link....

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=43211&page=1&site=3#603490

    Scroll down and read my post...interesting stuff I put up.

    Laters

    Yizuman

  • avishai
    avishai
    I clearly want nothing to do with Zeus and Gorf

    Oh, come on! GORF rules! It's one of the best 80's video games ever! It was , like, 4 video games in one, kinda like Tron. Please believe in gorf, because I say so! Because if you don't, your almighty soul is at risk. Well, I guess you could believe in Tron. That'd be o.k too. Gosh, am I tired!

  • gumby
    gumby

    Yizuman,

    He's there for me time and time again.

    How nice for you! How come he isn't with the rest of his kids????....you know.....all the starving, poverty stricken people that number into the billions who don't even KNOW about the savior of ......"the world"???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    BTW......is he going to give them a chance like you had before he comes and gathers his church apart from all those who doesn't know he existed????????????????????????????????????

  • rem
    rem

    Yizuman,

    Works for me because I believe. Doesn't work for you because you don't believe. Big difference there.

    Like I said before, I used to beleive as well, and it didn't work for me. I used to have a strong belief in the bible, but through much research I found that it didn't stand the test of scrutiny. So far you have not provided any evidence for why I should believe the bible over the Hindu Vedas. Using your methodology, all religions would be equally valid. Think about it. Only with evidence can you discern between correct beliefs and incorrect beliefs. Correct beliefs should be congruent with reality. Neither the bible, nor the Hindu Vedas pass this simple test.

    I think many people use 'faith' or 'holy spirit' as an excuse to be lazy and not look closely at the foundations of their belief.

    Oh it's closer than we think. In fact, remember the prophecy regarding to the rebuilding of the city of Babylon? Check this link....

    The fact that you believe the bible his a reliable book of prophecy is evidence that you are both a poor student of history and of the bible. Your credulity is quite clear.

    rem

  • FiveShadows
    FiveShadows

    Actually i was told to write that post and i heard the spirit say 'this is not for all but someone who's reading the response' I still don't know who this person is. The fact of the matter is...the answers to the major questions in demand are given... However someone demands a certian attention to be given ...that i was pretty sure i covered but i guess now it is in need of GREAT detail

    you asked: Why would an omnipotent god need to become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself, so that his creations may escape the wrath of himself

    The answer is very simple 1) Jah-Eshua and Jah are two different spirits (John 20:31, 14:6)but know eachother so much are alike in personality so much that they are completely identical.

    2) Jah-Eshua did not recieve 'all power' and 'authority' till after his resurrection found in Mt 28:18

    3) if you are referring To 'Jah' or as many know of Him 'Jehovah' i stated this:

    Death made a bargin with God that if He (God) would give Death His only begotten Son ('The LIFE' John 14:6) He would release the world from the pains of Death.( Mt 20:28, 1 Timothy 2:6) ....
    Why? Because Death wishes to CONSUME LIFE. And Christ IS 'the Life.' God knowing that Death was a liar agreed these terms.
    Death, being a liar, Held on to Christ but did not release the world as he promised. (Proverbs 27:20, Habakkuk 2:5, Acts 2:24, Ephesians 4:8-10)This made it justified for God not only to take back His Son but also to release the world from Death's hold

    God must be Just ...if He is not...then He would be no different then Death who is unjust yes?

    You see it is not 'escaping the wrath of himself' but rather saving the world from Death's hold so all life is not destroyed. He sacraficed His Son's life so anyone who wants life can recieve it, those that do NOT want 'life' have 'chosen' their 'Father' which is Death (Proverbs 8: 35,36) and the Wrath of God is the unveiling of the hedge (Job 1:10) that is upon all life that holds us out of Death's grasp and DEATH comes and consumes those that have chosen him as their father.

    Gumby you stated:

    You do the same as you accuse him of doing. You called him prideful with a clouded heart.

    At least he has looked at both sides....from Christianity side......AND a sceptical side.....sceptical meaning having the balls to see if The bible really isn't god's word, and "stuff" like that.Have you?

    Once again you did not know my motive...i came back FIVE DAYS later to add something for SOMEONE on this post required 'proof' so the spirit turned the attention on them finding 'Truth' by themselves and the message was to put aside all of that which is bad and seek only Truth out of a pure Heart and you shall have it. Besides 'scriptures' and 'books' ...seek it out by means of Truth in your OWN heart ...I was sent to speak WHY you or whomever this might apply to was not recieving their answers and that my Lord has TRIED to give them that which they ask for. i'm sorry i didn't think i needed to make this 'clear' but will keep it in mind for future reference. I apologize if i have offended you or anyone else. If you or Donkey or anyone else took 'offense' to the post...i'm sorry my intensions were not doing that, for clearly it was for someone. I don't know if it was Mr Moe or someone who was watching all this. But if you yourself are indeed taking offense Your assumptions of this prideful attitude and arrogance etc 'attitude that i have'...is only but an assumption ...If it bothers you...Then is Holy spirit trying to tell you something? The Spirit directed my to write this because at that point my heart was pure in motive...I am not perfect...that is why i need my Lord. For the SPIRIT made it CLEAR how to LISTEN to Him. How to recieve your answers. No one else but YOU and Truth. No books no priests no nothing else. And you are trying to seek out the Truth of the matter yes? I am not a perfect person nor do i claim to be one. Infact in my OTHER posts i was directed by the spirit to inform everyone to 'test out the inspired expression.' To answer your question...yes i have done that which you inquire about. I never claimed that God's Word is 'the bible.' I believe it is Christ based on John 1:1, 1:14, 17:17, 14:6, Revelation 19:13 I do not believe in religion but rather go straight to Christ. The bible is an 'inspired expression' is it not? So we must 'test it out' as directed in 1 John 4:1-4 yes? To find out the Truth in it and the 'assumptions of prideful men?' The bible is not the means for 'salvation' ...it is Christ. (John 5:39,40) I am an ex jw. I have been disowned by my own family...my "girlfriend"...friends...i only have two-three people left in my life besides Christ and Jah. One of which i don't even talk to you that much because of distance. I do not enjoy this loss/persecution that i recieve from them...and infact it pains me greatly and many times i do not even wish to type or give messages because of people's contentions to be honest. When i try to explain my motive i get accused of several other things. But I try to do it to the best of my ability because I love my Lord and must do as i am directed above all else. Without Him I would be dead right now and because of Him...I have life and a home. I have been trying desperately to stick to Truth ...be loving towards all, but because of people's assumptions and no knowledge of my motive they go astray accusing me of things that i am not doing. I do not proclaim to be better than any of you, if anything i have learned of how horrible of a person I am. But If i am sent for one reason or another by the spirit...to deliver a message...i will do so, after i decipher whether it's Truth or not. Then its your turn to find out if it's Truth, if it's NOT...please come abck to me and let me know so i may inquire of my Lord. Now you (and anyone else) wanted answers to questions you inquired about...i presented scriptures. This was not sufficent enough. So the spirit informed me to tell you to seek out Truth in your heart, and the ONLY way you can find the absolute Truth of the matter is by not testing him, making your heart clean of pride..anger...hypocrasy ..etc...etc. Yes all fall short of from time to time...that's why the ransom was done. No one said fighting your own flesh was easy...infact they say 'you are your worst enemy.' But keep on 'seeking' and you will find.

    "all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves'

    Edited by - FiveShadows on 27 December 2002 16:4:5

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit