The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Also, JosephMalik said this to me on another Thread, about the Holy Spirit, quite a while back:
  

  And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. (John 14:16-17, NKJV)

  Can you now pick out the words that could have been translated "it" in these verses? There are five of them. Is your God an "it" and can you truly respect individuals calling themselves Christians, theologians, or ministers who deliberately mislead you in such subtle ways? Does the Spirit of truth reside within you and do you know it?

  I agree that the Greek word that is translated "He" and "Him" in that Verse can be translated as "it".

  However, that same Greek Word can also be translated as "it" in the following Verses:

  Matthew 6:4: so that your merciful deeds may be in secret, then your Father itself that sees in secret will reward you openly.

  Matthew 8:17: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying: "It took our infirmities, and bore our diseases."

  Luke 3:23: Jesus itself, when it began to teach, was about thirty years old, being the Son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

  John 5:20: For the Father has affection for the Son, and shows it all things that it itself does. It will show it greater works than these, that you may marvel.

  I think that the translation of the word as "It" or "He" or "Him" depends on the context, and who is translating.

  I checked over 20 Bible Translations, and in those Verses about the Holy Spirit, they all have the word "He" and "Him", not "it".

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 30 November 2002 2:5:49
• 

  The Firm

  Would you mind telling the rest of us in which verse you found the Tetragrammaton? It isn't in any interlinear translation of Isaiah 9:6. You must be thinking of something else.

  fjtoth: It's Isaiah 9:6. I can mail you a photocopy if you'd like, or simply check any library that carries a Hebrew OT.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  JosephMalik said:
  

  Undisfellowshipped said: Revelation 5:13 shows that if Jesus was a created being, He would have been singing out praise and worship to HIMSELF, right along with all the other creatures!

  There is no such thing as what if since how the Word came into existence is not discussed in scripture. Furthermore this point is not even valid for the text identifies the ones John heard speaking which exclude; him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Notice:

  13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

  The Lamb is not speaking is He? If so where?

  I'm not sure if you got the point I was trying to make:

  Revelation 5:13 says that every created being in Heaven or on Earth is praising the Father and the Son.

  That seems to me that The Father and The Son are not created beings.

  It also seems to me that The Father and The Son are receiving EQUAL Praise, Honor, Glory, and Worship.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Herk said to me:
  

  Then you make a statement that is guesswork at the least but a deliberate falsehood at the worst:

  In the Scriptures, most of the time, whenever The Father and Jesus are mentioned in the same Verses, The Father is called God, and Jesus is distinguished because they are SEPARATE PERSONS.

  "Most of the time" - How many times is that? There are 201 verses where "God" and "Jesus" are mentioned together. In not even one of those verses is there a hint that Jesus is God. There are 186 verses that contrast "God" and "Christ." In not one of them is Christ shown to be God. So, of a total of 387 instances, you say "most of the time," yet the facts reveal it is "none of the time." But in trinitarian fashion, you grasp at straws in a desperate yearning for something - anything - that will bolster your credulous faith that has no foundation

  You have completely, completely not read what you quoted me as saying.

  Here is what I said:

  "In the Scriptures, most of the time, whenever The Father and Jesus are mentioned in the same Verses, The Father is called God, and Jesus is distinguished because they are SEPARATE PERSONS."

  I can prove my statement :

  Matthew 19:26: Looking at them, Jesus said, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

  Acts 4:10: be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in Him does this man stand here before you whole.

  See, in those two Verses (as in most of the Verses in the Bible), the Father is called God, and Jesus is distinguished.

  I have no idea what you are trying to say.

  I think you may have thought I was saying that the Bible calls Jesus God "Most of the time", which is definitely not what I was saying.

  I think it might help to know what "Distinguish" means (Webster's Dictionary):

  1: To perceive a difference in: mentally separate
  2: To mark as separate or different

  However, there are certainly Verses that say Jesus is God (but never any Verses that say Jesus is the Father):

  John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

  In John 1:1, why does it say "the Word was with God?

  That was in order to distinguish the Son from the Father.

  But then, why does John 1:1 say that "the Word was God."?

  In order to show that Jesus has the Full Nature of God.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Herk said to me:
  

  Note also that Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6. That is a psalm addressed to Israel's king. Fittingly, the writer of Hebrews applies it also to Israel's greatest king, the Messiah. But think: If the verse in Hebrews means that Christ is God, then the verse in the Psalms means that David and the other kings of Israel were also God!

  Interesting, if Psalm 45:6 was addressed to the Human King of Israel at that time, it would have been Solomon (from my research), which means God called Solomon "God", and God told Solomon his Kingdom would never end.

  If I'm not mistaken, Solomon became an "Apostate".

  How do you know that Psalm 45:6 (or the whole Chapter of Psalms 45) is addressed to a Human King of Israel?

  Please read Acts 2:25-31 to see how Prophecies like Psalm 45:6 about Christ were stated in the Bible.

  Herk said to me:

  The verse [Revelation 5:13] says plainly that they worshipped "him," not "them." If the choice is between "God" and "the Lamb," the obvious reference is to "God."

  Hmmm, well, I would the majority of Translations I have do not include the word "Him".

  The King James Version and a couple other Translations I have do include the word "Him", but about 17 Translations I have do not.

  Herk said to me:

  Jesus asked, "Who do you say that I am?" The correct answer was given by Peter: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." You say Jesus is God, and Peter said Jesus is "the Son" of God. Who should we believe? You? Or Peter? Jesus said to Peter "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 16:15-17)

  Will you accept this plain explanation given in the Bible? In post after post, your answer has thus far been a deafeningly loud "NO! NO! NO! THE TRINITY IS TRUE REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!!!"

  Thanks for your confidence once again.

  John 20:28: Thomas answered Him, "The Lord of me and the God of me!"
  John 20:29: Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed."
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  This is for DakotaRed:

  John 3:13: And no man has ascended up to Heaven, except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
• 

  fjtoth

  Firm,

  There seems to be a breakdown in communication between us. I have three interlinears in my library. In none of them does the Tetragrammaton appear in Isaiah 9:6. That's why I wrote: "You must be thinking of something else." Why would I need a photocopy? Surely you should be able to tell us the English word that corresponds with the Tetragrammaton in that verse. The usual English word is "L ORD ," but it's not in Isaiah 9:6.

  I can just see JWs laughing their heads off over your claim, unless you can come up with something reliable here.

  fjtoth
• 

  JosephMalik

  Undisfellowshipped said: You have said several times that Jesus created all the people and governments, but He did not create the Universe or the Earth. For some reason, when I read the Scriptures, I do not get the same impression as you do about what Jesus created:

  Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says,....

  Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.

  Undisfellowshipped,

  Yes and the root texts that explained creation to the Jewish nation were well know by all including the writer of Hebrews and John. So when we apply such texts as this then such fundamental information should not be ignored as you do here. The foundation of the earth is mankind of course and the heavens are the governments that exist upon it much as Paul explained in Col. The term heavens to Jews has the same meaning as higher powers and rulers as shown by other texts. Heavens also means God as this God is over them and is used that way in scripture as well. Therefore the word heavens does not have only one single definition or use. By ignoring many of the texts already shown in this thread and not taking into account the many ways heavens are used you come up with a view that contradicts such texts. Then you do not even consider delegated authority where credit is also taken by God for the works of His Son since they were not undertaken on the Sons personal initiative. In other words you have no case for saying that because you think God created man then Jesus must be this same God.

  Undisfellowshipped said: John 1:3: All things were made by Him; and without Him was not one thing made that was made.

  This was already covered in this thread. What all things are under discussion by John? Do you see him mention stars, planets, angels or anything like that? No! John is only discussing mankind and the life that such mankind has. No smoking gun here. You must prove from this very same text and in context that words such as not one thing or all things apply to such planets and stars. But even John the Baptist knew better for he said regarding our Lord:

  9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

  Every man, the world was made by him, (not the God that this him was with at this beginning) that is all John is talking about. And the unique way this Word became flesh making him the only begotten God (some translations) or human Son of the Father.

  Undisfellowshipped said: The following Verse states that the same One who created Heaven and the Earth, also created the things inside Heaven and the Earth:

  Revelation 10:6: and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created Heaven and the things that are in it, the Earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay

  Since Jesus created the people in the Earth, that would contradict the above Scripture, unless Jesus "created Heaven and the things that are in it, the Earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it".

  So, From Revelation 10:6, I would conclude that the Supreme Being created the Universe and everything in it.

  Maliks response: Again this has already been explained in this thread. This is a general statement in a symbolic text that does not go into the specific detail we require here. The text does not say that this Supreme Being did all these things personally or alone does it. Some Hebrew texts did go into finer detail and were shown in this thread but this text does not. Of course this GOD is credited with our existence. But His WORD literally created mankind for Him as shown by other texts that do go into such detail.

  Undisfellowshipped said: Since Jesus created the people in the Earth, that would contradict the above Scripture, unless Jesus "created Heaven and the things that are in it, the Earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it".

  There is no contradiction and no evidence that somehow you have proven that the nature of God consists of three persons each called God in their own right. Take a look at the way such All Things is translated and the many times it is used other ways and you will then see that you have an impossible argument and cannot support it, notice:

  AV-all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2, any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26;

  Joseph
• 

  JosephMalik

  JosephMalik said:

  Undisfellowshipped said: Revelation 5:13 shows that if Jesus was a created being, He would have been singing out praise and worship to HIMSELF, right along with all the other creatures!

  There is no such thing as what if since how the Word came into existence is not discussed in scripture. Furthermore this point is not even valid for the text identifies the ones John heard speaking which exclude; him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Notice:

  13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

  The Lamb is not speaking is He? If so where?

  I'm not sure if you got the point I was trying to make:

  Revelation 5:13 says that every created being in Heaven or on Earth is praising the Father and the Son. That seems to me that The Father and The Son are not created beings.

  It also seems to me that The Father and The Son are receiving EQUAL Praise, Honor, Glory, and Worship.

  Undisfellowshipped,

  I understood exactly what you were trying to say. But the point is that you had no point to offer here. Everyone is speaking in the text you provided except him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. They are the recipients of this praise. Their nature, created or not does not matter and your argument has no basis. I said: The Lamb is not speaking is He? If so where? Using words such as created to force the recipient of this praise to be included in the group doing the praising is remarkable. I am always in awe of how Trinitarians think and apply texts. Please show how the recipient of such praise is also out there with the group doing the praising as requested? And do not forget that I said "how the Word or the Lamb in this text came into existence is not described in scripture." The Word became flesh and is not a creation or new creation as you insist here. He is simply the only Begotten of the Father, something Adam was not since the Word made Adam not the Father.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 30 November 2002 14:31:21
• 

  JosephMalik

  Undisfellowship said: I think that the translation of the word as "It" or "He" or "Him" depends on the context, and who is translating.

  I checked over 20 Bible Translations, and in those Verses about the Holy Spirit, they all have the word "He" and "Him", not "it".

  Undisfellowship,

  20 translations, now that sounds impressive, but it changes no fact provided. You have already demonstrated how "it" applies and theology not translation governs how such texts are rendered. It would take a comprehensive study of the term Holy Spirit to resolve the matter and much of this was done and included in Beyond Trinitarianism. Does it apply to humans? Yes. Does it apply to the Faith? Yes. Does it apply to truth? Yes. Are all such uses God? No. You will find all this covered in this document found on my web page.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 30 November 2002 9:52:3