The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    What does it matter if there is a Trinity...remember...your both saved if you believe in Christ.,

    Gumby,

    I have pondered this problem myself and it is a good question. Did it matter that James, John and even Peter for a time at least kept the Law the same as Jews did? Does this mean that they will lose their lives by being denied entry into the kingdom? Why did Paul fight them with such fury if it did not matter? Well the answer is both yes for some and no for others. Our Lord judges not us and we have a good idea of how this will be done. It does matter as far as the faith was concerned. By this I mean who is faithful and accepted such truth and who is evil and would not accept such truth as our Lord taught them. The evil ones will simply be cast out and not counted as disciples. There are verses that deal heavily with such heresy as it is called. Other terms for such false teachers are man of lawlessness and antichrist. So good people that cannot grasp such truth may be saved because of what they are as human beings and not their supposed status as disciples. We call such sheep. They will however not be justified until the symbolic 1000 years ends and they pass the final test. Watchtower witness abuse their own and fail this test miserably. Too bad for them. Evil people that know better but teach such lies anyway will not enter the kingdom period. We call such goats. And if we do not have such truth we will have to take our chances with the rest of the world or such sheep and goats that are of the nations.

    Those that enter the Kingdom as disciples of Christ will already be justified and not face second death or the final judgment. This is why it matters in a nutshell. But this gets away from the theme of Trinity being discussed here. And along with Trinity go a host of other teachings equally as bad and destructive. This matters as well. But the Watchtower is loaded with doctrine equally as bad and worse. So they are no better off either.

    Joseph

    Edited by - JosephMalik on 29 November 2002 20:11:8

  • Queenie45
    Queenie45

    SO TRUE!!!

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed
    UnD says: Well, Two Separate Persons (Husband and Wife) join together and become One in Unity.
    The Word "Trinity" = Tri-Unity = Three-In-Unity-As-One

    You are still describing three separate and distinct beings. The Bible states that God is one being, with one name. To be God and separate, all three would need to be Gods and leave you with three Gods.

    The distinction of God being one God, not a God of unity, was to show the difference between Him and the pagan gods of surrounding nations at the time. A man and woman can marry and become one, not one being, but one in thought and goal, their life togather. Yet, you still have two humans, not one.

    The Scriptures state that the Father is Omnipresent, and the Scriptures also teach that Jesus is Omnipresent (Omnipresent means "Everywhere at once").

    That is an interpretation. Obviously, if God knew thngs Jesus didn't and Jesus needed further teaching and had more things to be shown, as he stated, he is not the equal to the Father.(John 5:19, 20, 30; 8:28;)

    The Bible says Jesus "fills all things".

    Fills or fulfills?

    Jesus also stated while He was on Earth, that "The Son of Man is in Heaven"!

    I would appreciate you showing which scripture states this as I am too tired and lazy to search for it myself tonight.

    You are very correct, the Bible says God is the same always, and it also says Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

    And again, this is a matter of interpretation. If God, yet became human, he is not the same always, is he? If he came from heaven, where flesh and bone cannot survive, yet was flesh and bone here, then that is an obvious change.

    Actually, the Scriptures show that the Father, Son, and Spirit are in perfect Unity and Harmony, however, the Father has the Final Decision, because the Son and the Spirit willingly submit to the Father.

    Yes, they do, but that is hardly any proof of Jesus being God. It also says that the Disciples were one, in agreement, with Jesus as he was one with God. Yet, they are not considered God.

    However, the Scriptures also state that the Father has given ALL judgment, ALL authority, ALL power, to Jesus.

    Yes, clearly showing Jesus not to be God. If God, and only one God, as the Bible clearly and emphatically states, he would nothing granted or given to him.

    As for the apology for the generalization, there is no real need. I was just pointing it out to you.

    Lew W

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    BTW. Lew

    You don't think these people will actually go out and buy the book you recommended do you?

    No, Gumby, I don't. It would be much like getting a JW to buy and read Crisis of Conscience. Until they are ready to actually look at facts, they will never seek truth.

    Lew W

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed
    Please note that Hebrews 1:6 is a quotation from Deuteronomy 32:43 in the Septuagint: "Let all the angels of God worship him." The angels were to worship God at the time when he would cause the nations to be glad with his people. That time is related to the coming of Christ, as stated, when God "again brings the firstborn [Christ] into the world." So, is the writer of Hebrews telling the angels to worship Christ at that time? Not really. The angels in Hebrews 1 belong to God. The angels of God are instructed to worship "him," meaning God the Father. Please be careful how you read.

    This shows one of the most basic problems a trinitarian has. Yes, worship was instructed. But, was it the same worship given to God?

    The Greek word proskuneo has various meanings and was offered to many in the Bible, including the dragon, man, judges, etc. Scholars today admit that there is no single English word that adequately fits the various meaning and usuages of that particular word. When the King James was penned, worship was not as restricted a word as it is today.

    I will echo your sentiments as to being careful how you read and urge you to read it as it was written, not as we see and view language today.

    Here are some comments and research I did long ago on it's usage;

    "This word [proskuneo most often translated as worship] literally means to prostrate oneself, to bow down or to kiss the ground before someone. So, for example, when one of the gospels says that the disciples worshipped Jesus, it means that they knelt or bowed down around him, as an act of deference and reverence. The old English word obeisance means the same thing, and in the time of the King James version worship also meant that. King James own subjects might be expected to worship him, by bowing down before him. But in modern English, we have forgotten this meaning of worship and take the word to refer to an act of prayer or veneration to God."

    ".... the English word "worship" is misleading (can we say deceptive?) in that, to a modern audience, it implies a meaning exclusively reserved for action towards a god. The Greek proskuneo does not have that restricted sense, and one can prostrate before any number of superior people and beings. Now I for one cannot come up with a single English word that conveys that range of meaning, so I am not going to give the JWs too much grief for not being better than I am when it comes to making perfect translations. The authors of the New Testament used a common word for showing reverence to a superior. It has a broad sense, not a restrictive one. English readers have a right to know what the Greek means, don't they? The JW solution is not the best one, but nor is it proper to continue to mislead people into thinking that anytime a writer uses proskuneo he means an action restricted to a divine being.

    The problem with taking such a strident attitude in this conversation is that, as intelligent and educated as you are, you are working in this particular subject with a lack of basic information about the origins of the New Testament, and the linguistic and cultural background that allows us to understand its meaning."

    Professor Jason BeDuhn from an e-mail debate with John Pacheco, a Catholic Apologist in opposition to the New World Translation.

    Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

    page 1258,1259

    Topic: Worship (Verb and Noun), Worshiping

    "to make obeisance, do reverence to

    " (from pros, "towards," and kuneo, "to kiss"), is the most frequent word rendered "to worship." It is used of an act of homage or reverence (a) to God, e.g., Matt. 4:10; John 4:21-24; 1 Cor. 14:25; Rev. 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 11:16; 19:10 (2nd part); 22:9; (b) to Christ, e.g., Matt. 2:2,8,11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9,17; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6, in a quotation from the Sept. of Deut. 32:43, referring to Christ's Second Advent; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26; (d) to the Dragon, by men, Rev. 13:4; (e) to the Beast, his human instrument, Rev. 13:4,8,12; 14:9,11; (f) the image of the Beast, Rev. 13:15; 14:11; 16:2; (g) to demons, Rev. 9:20; (h) to idols, Acts 7:43.

    From Strong's Concodance, we also read;
    4352 proskuneo {pros-koo-neh'-o}

    from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); TDNT - 6:758,948; v

    AV - worship 60; 60 [note: just because it says worship, bear in mind that worship does not carry the restrictive sense that narrow-minded fundamentalist try to assign it. There is no single English word that conveys the varried meanings of the Greek proskuneo]1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
    2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and
    touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound
    reverence
    3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make
    obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
    3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
    3a1) to the Jewish high priests
    3a2) to God
    3a3) to Christ
    3a4) to heavenly beings
    3a5) to demons

    A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, by G.Abbott-Smith, 3rd edition, p.386 says:

    "[pros-kuneo],..(< kuneo,to kiss),....to make obeisance, do reverance to, worship.

    A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, by William F.Arndt and F.Wilbur Gingrich, 1957, says on pages 723,724, under proskuneo:

    "...used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person,and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground, etc,.....(fall down) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully.(see here Reinecker's Linguistic Key, p.2, where the above is quoted at Matthew 2:2)

    "1 to human beings who,however, are to be recognised by this act as belonging to a supernatural realm...

    "2 to God...a)of the God worshipped by monotheists...

    "5)to Jesus,who is revered and worshipped as Messianic King and Divine Helper: Mt.2:2,8,11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; J 9:38.....-The risen Lord is esp.the object of worship: Mt28:9,17; Lk 24:52..."

    Lastly, The New Thayers Greek-Lexicon of the New Testament, Joseph Henry Thayer, p.548:

    "[proskuneo]......to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence....hence in the N.T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage(to one)or make obseisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication...".

    The New American Bible translates proskuneo as "homage"
    (note: not worship) at Matthew 2:2,8,11; 8:2; 9:18: 14:33; 15:25; 18:26; 20:20; 28:9 it does not do so at Matthew 28:17. Would you call the NAB an abomination or accuse it of falsifying God's Word, because of failing to be "consistent" with the other places it translates the word as "homage"? The Revised English Bible has done exactly the same. Another Bible translation that was also not "consistent" at Matthew 28:17 because it rendered proskuneo differently than the other places cited above? See also Barclay's translation. But going back to the New American Translation. If one looks up in how it has translated proskuneo at Mark 5:6; Luke 24:52; John 9:38 we can see that it does not measure up to your critical level of consistency for in those places in Mark and Luke it is rendered as "prostrated" and "homage" respectively yet in John 9:38 as "worship." So when you insinuate that legitimate bibles use the word proskuneo consistently, are you not charged the Catholic New American Bible as one that is also improper? Do you feel that same way toward the other Bibles above as you do toward the New World Translation? Will you go to the Catholic Board and tell them how wrong they
    are?

    Matthew 18 :26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped
    (proskuneo) him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. (KJV) {Incidentally, did you also notice your word "Lord" applied to a human? Just a side note ;o) }

    Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped
    (proskuneo) the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped (proskuneo) the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship
    (proskuneo) him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein * * to worship
    (proskuneo) the first beast, whose * * deadly wound was healed.
    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would * not worship
    (proskuneo) the image of the beast should be killed (KJV)

    Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship
    (proskuneo) the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship
    (proskuneo) the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (KJV)

    Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped
    (proskuneo) his image. (KJV)

    Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship
    (proskuneo) them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon. (KJV)

    "Much of the confusion which obstructs clear thinking about the Godhead may be traced to a prime cause. We have not reckoned with changes in the meaning of words, effected by time, as language is transplanted from one culture to another." (The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound, 1998, Anthony F. Buzzard, Charles F. Hunting, International Scholars Publications, Page 3)

    "The meaning of words must be sought within the environment in which they were written. The Bible was not composed in the 20th century, nor did it's writers know anything of the subsequent creeds and councils. Context is all-important in determining the author's intent. Within the pages of [the Bible] Jesus never referred to himself as God." (The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound, 1998, Anthony F. Buzzard, Charles F. Hunting, International Scholars Publications, Page 84)

    "The irony of this bitter age-old controversy is that all factions, unitarians, Binitarians, and Trinitarians, claim to be worshipping only one God. Those who insist that Jesus is God argue that he is worthy of worship, an act offered only to God. If that point were sustained, we would have to conclude that two persons are worthy of worship as God. To propose a Godhead of two or three persons contradicts the many plain biblical statements that God is a single person. It is futile to escape this conclusion that by holding that the creeds do not mean by person what we mean today mean by person. In the Bible the Father and Jesus are obviously persons in the modern sense -- two different individuals."

    "The solution to the puzzle is that "worship" in Scripture is offered not only to God but to human persons who hold positions of dignity. The point is obscured in translation by the fact that that the Greek verb proskuneo is used both of worship to God and doing obeisance to human persons. Thus, for example, the king of Israel is worshipped in association with God (1 Chron 29:20 KJV). Daniel was worshipped (Dan 2:46). The saints are worshipped (Rev 3:9 KJV). Jesus is worshipped as Messiah, but only one person, the Father, is worthy of worship as God. It is highly significant that another Greek word, latreuo, which is used of religious service only, is applied exclusively to the Father in the New Testament" (The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound, 1998, Anthony F. Buzzard, Charles F. Hunting, International Scholars Publications, Page 134)

  • herk
    herk

    Dakota,

    Those are great quotes. I'll be keeping them in my files. Thanks.

    Herk

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    When the King James was penned, worship was not as restricted a word as it is today.

    Dakota:

    Just a brief thought on "worship" is that there are still some expressions which reflect the old meaning of the word.

    Judges, magistrates and other court officials are still called "Your Worship" and we still have a few worshipful companies (see http://www.barbers.kirion.net/links.htm).

    And if a marriage is performed according to the 1549 (Anglican) Book of Common Prayer, the man says to his bride:

    With thys ring I thee wed: Thys golde and silver I thee geve: with my body I thee wurship and withal my worldly Goodes I thee endowe. In the name of the father, and of the sonne, and of the holy goste. Amen.

    Earnest

    Edited by - Earnest on 29 November 2002 22:48:32

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Edited to Add more Info

    I'm willing to let Herk's comments about me and others go.

    So far, I think Herk has implied the following things about me:

    1: I'm not Honest
    2: I don't have Courage
    3: I use some sort of "Strategy" on my Posts in order to confuse or distract people.
    4: I'm twisting the Scriptures
    5: I'm taking the Scriptures completely out of context.
    6: I have lost my sense of Reason and Balance
    7: I am not an Ordinary Thinking Person
    8: I'm Odd
    9: I am posting Deliberate Falsehoods
    10: I have claimed that all people who do not believe in the Trinity are Ex-JW's.
    11: I'm just like all the other people who believe in the Trinity.
    12: And, the best one of all -- I'm on Drugs!

    Herk may have said more things about me, I haven't had enough time to go through and read all of his posts yet.

    Wow.

    Sometimes it makes me not even want to get involved with discussions.

    However, I will not let accusations like this stop me from getting involved in these discussions.

    I will let the people on this Board decide if the above actions are showing Christian Love or not.

    There seems to be a lot of accusations against me on this Board lately, and I'm not exactly sure why.

    On another Thread, another person accused me of being against Freedom of Speech, and then on another Thread, I was accused of being a liar and purposely spreading misinformation.

    Should I be keeping a journal of these accusations?

    Some people on this Thread have also basically said or implied that "All Trinitarians are just like the JW's and the Trinitarians won't ever look at any book that tries to refute the Trinity."

    Talk about generalizations.

    Trinitarians wouldn't even be on this Thread if they didn't look at info that tries to refute the Trinity.

    I think discussions like this end up showing the true attitudes of everyone.

    I think everyone involved in this discussion definitely needs to work on something that CANNOT BE DEBATED that Jesus said:

    "Love your neighbor as yourself"

    "Do to others what you want them to do to you"

    "Love your enemies"

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 30 November 2002 4:22:54

  • herk
    herk

    UnDisfellowshipped,

    Perhaps you haven't noticed, but up above I wrote

    I've been pretty tough on you, Undisfellowshipped, perhaps more so than I should have been.

    I also illustrated that you haven't been a saint either.

    Instead of us holding grudges and accusing one another of being unchristian and unloving, we need to be men enough to get back to the topic we set out to discuss. If others are being critical of us, perhaps we can take a lesson from that. Maybe there's something about our forum etiquette that needs improvement. On the other hand, if they're not specific, and they're not making it clear what's really bothering them, it's probably best to ignore them and do our best to get our message across. That would especially be true if it's quite noticeable that they're just plain ornery and that nothing we do will make them feel any better about us.

    Herk

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    JosephMalik said:

    At the beginning of the creation of mankind, this same Jesus known as the Word at that time (a non human Being that was with God) did the literal creating of the this world of mankind and as a consequence is responsible for all government and organizations, the worlds that exists upon it. It is for all such humanity that this Word became flesh and offered Himself in sacrifice. This position as creator of man (not the universe or earth) made him God to the world created by Him. This did not make him the Supreme Being when the term God is used in that sense but it did give Him authority over this creation of His that sinned and needed redemption.

    You have said several times that Jesus created all the people and governments, but He did not create the Universe or the Earth.

    For some reason, when I read the Scriptures, I do not get the same impression as you do about what Jesus created:

    Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says,....

    Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.

    John 1:3: All things were made by Him; and without Him was not one thing made that was made.

    The following Verse states that the same One who created Heaven and the Earth, also created the things inside Heaven and the Earth:

    Revelation 10:6: and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created Heaven and the things that are in it, the Earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay

    So, From Revelation 10:6, I would conclude that the Supreme Being created the Universe and everything in it.

    Since Jesus created the people in the Earth, that would contradict the above Scripture, unless Jesus "created Heaven and the things that are in it, the Earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it".

    Also, I looked up the Greek Word for "All Things" in John 1:3, and here is Thayer's Definition:

    G3956
    πᾶς
    pas
    Thayer Definition:
    1) individually
    1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

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