The Trinity (page 13)

gumby

Swedish Chief,

You, right now, are in an apostate, unless you repent and trust in Jesus Christ you will be condemned.

Are you saying DR is an Apostate because he doesn't believe in the Trinity? And that he is condemmed?

Again you're showing yourself to be inconsistent. As I mentioned earlier, you opened this thread with both barrels loaded and blazing away. You set the tone for the discussion. If I call anyone a liar, it is because they actually lied, not for any other reason. But you and other Trinitarians have made accusations without any basis. Did you or did you not lie when you accused me of ignoring your questions? That's one of the worst lies I've heard in ages! That it is a lie is plain from all the many posts I've written in this thread, addressed mainly to you! Instead of apologizing, you want me to feel guilty for the wrong you've done. And you feel that you are the respectful one!!!

You asked,

(1) Why was Jesus crucified? (2) What were the Jews laws for putting someone to death according to your studies?

(1) In the parable of the ten minas, Jesus spoke of himself as a man of noble birth who would travel to a distant country to seek a kingdom for himself. Jesus said, "But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us.'" (Luke 19:14) So, it was over the issue of kingdom rulership that Jesus was executed. This is borne out by what the Jews cried out when Jesus was being tried: "Crucify him! We have no king but Caesar."

Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the King of the Jews?" (Matthew 27:11; Mark 15:2; John 18:33) The Roman soldiers mocked him, saying "Hail! The King of the Jews!" (Matthew 27:29; Mark 15:18; Luke 23:3; John 19:3) "And above his head they put up the charge against him which read, 'THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.'" (Matthew 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19) The Jews mocked him "saying, 'If You are the King of the Jews, save yourself!'" (Luke 23:37)

Jesus was also hated because he exposed the world and many of its people as evil: "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." (John 3:19-21) "The world ... hates me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil." (John 7:7)

Of course, none of the reasons people hated Jesus were valid: "But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, 'They hated me without a cause.'" (John 15:25)

Jesus' execution had nothing to do with any imagined claim that he was God, for he never claimed to be God.

Jesus' true followers are also hated and persecuted, and it is for the same reason. Jesus prayed: "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." (John 17:14)

(2) Under the Law, the death penalty was prescribed for (1) blasphemy, (2) worship of any god other than Jehovah (or Yahweh, if you prefer) and idolatry in any form, (3) witchcraft and spiritism, (4) false prophecy, (5) Sabbath breaking, (6) murder, (7) adultery, (8) a woman marrying with the false claim of being a virgin, (9) intercourse with an engaged girl, (10) incest, (11) sodomy, (12) bestiality, (13) kidnapping, (14) striking or reviling a parent, (15) bearing false witness, in a case where the penalty for the one testified against would be death, and (16) coming near to the tabernacle if not authorized.

Jesus was not guilty of any of the above. When he was charged with blasphemy, it was not because he claimed to be God. Rather, it was because with authorization from God he forgave sins. (Matthew 9:2-4) That he did not claim to be God is made clear in the context, "But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men." (Verse 8)

Also, Jesus was accused of blasphemy because he said he was the Son of Man as well as God's Son. (Matthew 9:2-4; 26:64-66; Mark 14:61-64) The Jews on one occasion accused Jesus of pretending to be God, but he showed them that he merely claimed to be God's Son, not God himself. (John 10:36)

Did they really believe deep down in their heart of hearts that Jesus was claiming to be God? If they did, the following expressions within the context should seem very strange and puzzling: "The Pharisees were saying, 'This man is not from God.' ... The Jews had agreed that if any one should confess him to be Christ [Messiah, not GOD], he should be put out of the synagogue." (John 9:16, 22)

I hope this is helpful.

Herk

SpannerintheWorks

So if there is one company, can individuals within that company, who do different "jobs" for different people, still work for, and

represent, and "be" that company?

It's still "that company" in nature, etc... Of the same "substance"

Understand God...?... Forget it!...We'll never do it!

Spanner

SwedishChef

Gumby, if you read some his posts it's obvious he's not saved. Dakota doesn't trust the Bible, He hates fundamentalism because it teaches the Bible's message. That all who reject Jesus Christ is condemned, but those who repent, believe, and place their trust on Jesus Christ is saved.
Dakota has no religion, he preferrs to view God as he wishes. He has become a law unto himself. (Romans 2:14)
My one question is this for Dekota: how can you trust Jesus's message if it was not perfectly preserved?

Reborn2002

Donkey & William Penwell -

Sorry to disappoint, but I have bested the both of you.

I have SEVEN, count em', SEVEN imaginary friends floating around in my head as a belief system, and one of them includes a 6 foot tall invisible rabbit named Harvey.

Edited by - Reborn2002 on 28 November 2002 15:27:21

William Penwell

Gumby you said:

So....is Jesus a copycat of former dieties? I don't know.....but I'm looking into material that discusses the subject. If it's true.....it doesn't matter about a trinity. We were lied to AGAIN and we believed it.

I agree with your comments. Jesus was nothing but a wise sage that was deified after his death . I am afraid you would get more response by talking to a brick wall than reason with some of these people.

Will

Edited by - william penwell on 28 November 2002 15:28:35

William Penwell

Reborn2002

Yeah but mine are pink with purple spots.

Will

SwedishChef

Herk, thats all fine and dandy, but your interpretation doesn't stand up against the weight of Scripture. The Messiah is God. It's not only in the NT but all over the OT.
Isaiah 6-7 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."
In this passage the Messiah is prophecied. He is called the Everlasting Father and the Mighty God. So, herk, are you saying that there are two mighty Gods and two Everlasting Father. The Jews knew from passages like this who the Messiah was going to be - God Himself.

Do I have to quote Isaiah 44:6-7 again? "Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee."

Zechariah 2:10-11 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

Here is another passage which basically says the same thing as in Isaiha. The Lord (in this passage tranlsated as Jehovah) sends the Lord (Jehovah) to dwell with His people. Jehovah even says "I WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF THEE." Sorry Herk, your interpretations have fallen.

Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting"

This passage says the Messiah has an everlasting past. No creator!
Can the Deity of Christ be any more obvious than this?

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Reborn2002

Yeah but mine are pink with purple spots.

LOL!

Do I win a prize if my imaginary deities are culturally diverse?

donkey

Harvey told me that he no longer likes you Reborn, but instead he prefers You Know becuae You Know lets him hide in the hat.

The Trinity

Share this