by Gamaliel 83 Replies latest jw friends
I secretly wish my parents would come on the site. There is plenty here to open their eyes in spite of the bickering.
Did you suppose that your coming here and posting for the umteenth time what has been posted before would somehow remedy the constant bickering?
many fine points from those who are close to those involved..I do not know personally either RF or BB but would like to make some points
BB is a 'single issue' campaigner who from my understanding wants to be accepted as a JW and who fought his disfellowshipping etc. I am unaware of any doubts he has over the whole thrust of WT teaching.
RF is not a 'campaigner' but has dismissed Wt teaching in its entirety and presumably has no desire ever to be back in the fold.
Silentlambs as a concept is excellent but cannot continue as a 'one person' organisation - it needs to broaden its impact by having a structure - but then if it does is it not in danger of becoming another 'organisation' like the WT?
The WT must love the fallout from this whole sorry mess - people attacking either RF or BB should remember who/what the enemy is and it is not two men with differing opinions on some things.
I would like to see the Silentlambs Organisation serve as a focus and information point re the WT and its disgraceful history/ and continuing disgrace in protecting children. For BB I wonder how long this can go on?....does he want to be reinstated? if the WT changed certain points re child abuse would BB return? Silentlambs must become 'de-personalised' to be effective and that means BB must step back from the limelight.
In essence - if Silentlambs won all the concessions it demands the WT make what would be the position of BB and its supporters? Do they agree with the spirit appointed status of the FDS, for example? If not then they should examine the motives for focussing on the single issue involved - WT abuses everyone - not just children.
I am well aware from personal experience of how children are sexually abused and damaged by the present system - chiefly because of the 'trust' drummed in to children - trust in brothers who you would not want to know if you were not in the truth. This is what gives abusers access to humble innocent victims. Many who were abused as children in the organisation would never have been harmed but for coming into 'the truth' - the best we can do to protect others is to stop them falling into the same trap
Already read page one - didn't read page 2 (at work).
Yes, I will continue to support SilentLambs. The website is good, btw. If one doesn't have the heart to read the survivors' section every time - there is a general section too. A small, cozy, place to be honest......like this place used to be. Our own hidden Coffee Shop.
Yes, I think Franz's books are good. I think he's a devout Christian, too devout for my tastes. I don't believe Franz deserves to be worshipped as the Father of Shunned JW's. He's good, but he ain't that good.
Yes, Bowen is good too. Different personality, different agenda. I hope he continues being "a thorn in the side of the WT." Perhaps he needs to be the way his personality is in order to be an effective thorn? I still believe in Public Relations people, btw.
I wish the posts about this whole affair would be put to peace between all posters. The WT is our enemy - not Ray Franz, and not Bill Bowen.
The victims of the teachings of the WTBTS will continue. At least, with the SilentLambs movement, the WT can be slowed down or slightly reformed.....and perhaps thousands of kids won't be raped - like their parents & grandparents were. A worthy cause worth supporting.
waiting
I will continue to support Silent Lambs. I will do it b/c of all the survivors(myself included). I have some feelings about this war of words between Bill and Ray-but it will not stop me from supporting SilentLambs .
I think a lot of us realized the value of Bill's work, there seems to be nothing else quite like it, and we have therefore put all our eggs in one basket. Is the silentlambs organization set up so that people requesting support can be helped in case of an unexpected illness or incapacity?Can folks be directed to an organization knowledgable of their specific problem so that they feel comfortable? Can silentlambs be expanded to include legal counsel? What about trained investigators? I've heard that even volunteers can train to become case investigators if they work under the aegis of a reputable organization.Gamaliel
Gamaliel,
These are all excellent points, and as far as I know silentlambs is going in that direction and more. We're setting up a legal section on the site (right now the link points to Kim Norris' page), and we're also setting up a section for a very prominent psychologist. She'll be able to answer questions online, and there will be a 'ask me' section, where she will answer questions that are posted to the public as well. Also, as far as I know a network of psychologists are being set up. Also, like I said before silentlambs is expanding throughout North America and globally, with Charters in every State, Province and hopefully most countries at least in time. So is silentlambs a one man organization? Perhaps up until now it was riding on the shoulders of one man. A man who realizes he can't do it all alone. And again, an imperfect man.
(Speaking in general, not just one person)
This is my opinion, and only my opinion, but if a guy has this amount of pressure on him, he's bound to make mistakes, point blank. I'm not saying his opinion of Ray was a mistake or was not a mistake, I don't know. I was not in on their conversation(s), and neither were any of you. The only way to determine any of this is to know who's lying and who is not, and can any of us do that? Absolutely not. So why don't we all drop it? We can sit here and complain because Bill made a post on the subject and won't drop it, but you know what? The last post he made on the subject was November 6th, 2 weeks ago. I think the only reason he made a second post was to try and defend himself from the constant attacks made here against him. His first post was to say Ray Franz is no friend of silentlambs, that was it. And how do we know that's not true? Everyone in this situation should be ashamed. A person comes on this board and states an opinion that may be based in fact, and everyone tears him to shreds without even giving him the benefit of the doubt. A man who has set his life aside, his livelihood aside, and again, 10's of thousands of dollars of his own money (and that is no joke) for abuse victims both inside the Watchtower and out, and because of one statement everyone was able to turn on him. What is wrong with you all? You won't always agree with a person 100%, that's a fact of life. I think it's time to grow up and decide where your priorities are. If you wish to continue your support than continue your support, if not then don't. silentlambs will still accomplish more for the JW abuse victims, or JWs in general than any other cause in history, and that's a fact, and that's with or without you. If you're ready to turn your backs on all those little children who are being abused right now, all because one MAN has an opinion of another MAN, than you have issues of your own. You complain that Bill posted a message in defense of the cruel and ruthless attacks he endured on this board, which is already a haven for personal attack anytime someone has an unpopular opinion, yet you all post every day, all day long attacking him. HYPOCRITES! Look in the mirror for crying out loud. If you all just sit back, calm down and think about this entire ridiculous playground battle, you'll realize it's not as big of a deal as everyone has made it. Have some self respect. You're all assuming one man who has worked his ass off, at great personal expense is automatically lying because Ray Franz would never do such a thing. Who in the hell is Ray Franz?? He wrote a book, now two, made alot of money, your money. Did he ever donate any of that to victims of Watchtower abuse? I think not. Has he done one thing even remotely close to what the silentlambs cause has done? I think not. He's no God people, quite embarrassing yourselves. Bill is not God either, he's just as human as Ray, but his cause is noble, and his motivation is relentless. And again, I'm making no judgments or saying you have to follow one man or the other. I'm saying you don't have to follow either.....And you shouldn't! Why is everyone acting like they have to choose one man or the other? It's ridiculous. You either support silentlambs or you don't, and if you want to hold what Bill has done against those innocent children, than so be it, and I hope you sleep well at night.
Edited by - RevMalk on 20 November 2002 11:10:3
Dutchie,
You said:
I know that if I were being torn apart in thread after thread on discussion board after discussion board day after day, I could not bear up under the stress and would have to check myself into a psychiatric hospital.
That's exactly my concern for Bill, too, Dutchie!
Using the terms we use at work, when there is a potential breakdown of a server, we need some kind of "failover;" we need "high availability." An alternative should be ready and waiting. (Of course, I'm not talking about just the hardware.) I agree that the new website for silentlambs looks great. Everyone who wants to should contribute. After some of the things said here, especially about financial issues, I may continue to contribute. Maybe that will take some of the stress off Bill.
You also said:
My what a big heart you have. You are worried about everyone involved. Do you have any suggestions or proposals to make things better?
I don't know if my suggestions or proposals are any good. I know that I have been too passive with this particular issue, because frankly, I didn't know about it among the JWs. My wife and I have children, and have also been working with many JWs/xJWs for several years, now. Now that I think back, it's possible some of these people we've worked with may have been abused in many more ways than we first suspected. I'm just now starting to learn more about helping victims of sexual abuse. Our focus has been primarily to encourage xJWs to start getting along in life without excess concern over JWs. It's enough of a problem getting settled, getting a job, getting an education. We do try to "act" like Christians, ourselves. I believe deeply in the Christian ethic, but am too skeptical to preach the full belief system. My wife has the faith, but we were both already burned out from the preaching game when we were JWs. If you are atheist, agnostic, believer, or (yikes!) fundamentalist, it doesn't matter.
I don't think there's anything wrong with setting up an organization, and I don't think it has to "Christian" to be effective. Of course, there are drawbacks to effectiveness when you are not honest, but I can see a use for some types of "dishonesty." (Gamaliel is not my real name, for example. )
Did you suppose that your coming here and posting for the umteenth time what has been posted before would somehow remedy the constant bickering?
No, and I really don't mind the bickering. Also I'm seeing much less of it [crossing fingers] so far. Bickering is not productive, but it's part of the subculture we've come to expect on such forums. The fear that the WTS would point to this to make a mockery of exJWs might be tempting to them, but I think it would backfire. It would give average JWs, who wouldn't otherwise get here, the excuse to come to look at our "Gehenna." There is too much danger of JWs finding a diamond in the rough, or a pearls among swine.
Rev. Malik,
A person comes on this board and states an opinion that may be based in fact, and everyone tears him to shreds without even giving him the benefit of the doubt.
No, not everyone. Some defended his viewpoint.....some just took the middle of the road path.
A man who has set his life aside, his livelihood aside, and again, 10's of thousands of dollars of his own money (and that is no joke) for abuse victims both inside the Watchtower and out, and because of one statement everyone was able to turn on him. What is wrong with you all? You won't always agree with a person 100%, that's a fact of life.
Amen, Reverend - btw, agreed with most of the rest of your post too.
Thank you so much for the valuable information you put forth about the changes in the SilentLambs website. Having a psychologist available to speak with (generally) will be a great asset. So much work and heartache is done without us being aware of any problems.
waiting
It's not just about Ray Franz though. I've explained elsewhere why I think it would be quite possible for Ray Franz to have been unaware of the abuse that was taking place back then anyway.
The problem that Silent Lambs will come up against repeatedly is the fact that Bill Bowen behaves absolutely abominably to those who upset him in some way. The emails that he has sent to 2 posters from this board were outrageous in their abusiveness. I know, I read them!!! He even went so far as to tell one poster that he had set up 3 successful businesses and the first thing he did was to get rid of anyone who was not 100% behind him, and that poster concerned came into that category. He told another poster to get down on his knees and beg someone's forgiveness because he hadn't got all his facts correct. I've seen his words myself. He is didactic in the extreme.
IMHO, Silent Lambs is an excellent thing, but Bill Bowen should move aside for someone else now, or the whole thing will degenerate into an ego-feeding operation.
Englishman.
RevMalk,
as far as I know silentlambs is going in that direction and more. We're setting up a legal section on the site (right now the link points to Kim Norris' page), and we're also setting up a section for a very prominent psychologist. She'll be able to answer questions online, and there will be a 'ask me' section, where she will answer questions that are posted to the public as well. Also, as far as I know a network of psychologists are being set up. Also, like I said before silentlambs is expanding
Thanks. That's what I needed to hear. I just read about the Norris/Love class action suit. If they were to win, have they (or others) pledged funds back into the "cause." It should be a no-brainer for them if they think that an initial win could leverage another one. The investment in the website could help provide more leads and ammunition.
The last post he made on the subject was November 6th, 2 weeks ago.
It was actually closer to three days ago. On Sunday, overnight, he repeated all the same ideas to Channel C, a place he doesn't post to, and where such posts are expressly not permitted. You can hardly imagine how "out of place" this post appears among the other subjects for discussion.
http://www.channelc.org/cgi-bin/eboard30/index.cgi
Also you are very generous in your defense of Bill, but most of those issues have been covered. Just a couple of points I hadn't heard before:
A person comes on this board and states an opinion that may be based in fact, and everyone tears him to shreds without even giving him the benefit of the doubt.
I gave Bill the benefit of the doubt. I wrote Bill and I called Ray. I no longer have any doubt. I wouldn't be so concerned if I could still give Bill the benefit of the doubt. I know now that there are a lot of people, myself included, who are holding back evidence to avoid unnecessarily hurting a cause that might still be salvaged.
Who in the hell is Ray Franz?? He wrote a book, now two, made alot of money, your money. Did he ever donate any of that to victims of Watchtower abuse? I think not. Has he done one thing even remotely close to what the silentlambs cause has done? I think not. He's no God people,
I can see you have never visited with him. I have. I'm guessing that you didn't just make this up, so someone has surely lied to you. But it's also hard to believe you didn't have the honesty to question even a potential lie before using it, unverified. Many people can testify that you didn't verify it, because I happen to know other people on this board who have visited him. But it's also evidence that you have blind faith in whoever lied to you. Perhaps now, by extension, you can understand better why I am as worried for the victims as I am for Bill.
Gamaliel
Edited by - Gamaliel on 20 November 2002 12:25:4
Edited by - Gamaliel on 20 November 2002 12:25:50
Edited by - Gamaliel on 20 November 2002 12:30:32
Waiting, I agree with what you've said! So that's my thoughts on the subject!
