My Humble Uneducated Opinion!

by 68storm 31 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • nilfun
    nilfun
    Those of us who were raised as JW's, tend to think we had no choice and actually DIDN'T choose that religion. I used to say the same thing. But.........we did eventually choose it.

    Maybe some did, but I was always looking for a way out. As a JW kid, everything unique and beautiful about me that tried to grow was mercilessly nipped in the bud. Perry made an excellent post about this.

    So, my point is that even if we are born and raised "in the truth", there is something about our personality, our history, that makes us susceptible to becoming part of a cult or whatever nonsense you want to call it.

    If so, I think that that "something" comes from unrelenting mental abuse. No I did not choose this cult. I did not get preached to by JWs, study, then get baptised because I was attracted to their religion. Everything was done out of coersion and fear, everything. I know my mom had emotional issues and that is why she made the decision to join, but to this day,after every phone call with my JW mom, I am left wondering why why why did she not only join this cult, but force her children to live a life of misery in its clutches...

    edited to add:

    Thank you 68storm, for your great post!

    Edited by - nilfun on 3 November 2002 1:11:8

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    My brother feels the same as you, nilfun. In my opinion, it makes him continue to blame our parents for making us be JW's. My brother was a pioneer, an elder and very involved up to his first wife's death, when he came unraveled. The real man came out at that point, and he has not been a JW since 1978. For a person to become that involved in the JW's (I include myself, because I also was a pioneer, and a true believer.............I didn't want out, and wasn't forced to be a witness) it is a choice, not a state of their upbringing.

    If you don't take responsibility for your choices, and always blame others for your lot in life, how can you heal? It's always going to be someone else's fault. Just an observation, but Dr. Phil says the same thing, and I think he is on to something.

    When you are a 62 year old man (my brother) and you constantly talk about how your life was ruined because your parents became JW's when you were 10, there is something wrong. Don't you think?

  • nilfun
    nilfun

    Hi Mulan, yeah I can see your point. But remember, I'm not your brother. We all have something in common-we were in a cult.

    But we also each had a different experience, perspective, and position while in that cult. And psychological/physical/verbal and other types of abuse are bound up in my experience. I will state again, I was coerced into that religion. Maybe your brother wasn't...though you did mention that some abusive stuff happened in your home growing up....

    For a person to become that involved in the JW's (I include myself, because I also was a pioneer, and a true believer.............

    See, that doesn't describe me personally...

    When you are a 62 year old man (my brother) and you constantly talk about how your life was ruined because your parents became JW's when you were 10, there is something wrong. Don't you think?

    Yes, something is very wrong. The cult damaged your brother. He is hurting...I hope he he can heal, in his own time, in his own way. We all will move forward when we move forward. But just as I know that it wasn't my fault my ex-husband abused me, I know it isn't my fault that I was traumatized and abused by the JWs cult.

    We each have a different temperment. When my older sister was abused, most of the time she reacted with defiance. I was different, most of the time I felt despondent about it. Different people, different ways of coping (or not coping). I guess it just bothers me that you seem to be generalizing about all people who were raised as JWs. Not all of us chose to be JWs, not all of us embraced their teachings. As a minor, I had to obey my parents, in everything. My spirit was completely broken in order to effect this.

    Mulan, I just don't understand how you could think that "we... eventually [chose]" to be JWs... Not "we". Not me.

    But, of course, we will each have our own opinions about this, hey? ((((Mulan)))

  • Gilgamesh
    Gilgamesh

    68storm,

    That was one of best summaries I've read about the problems with JWs. I especially like how you didn't have to get into many specific doctrinal problems to show what's wrong (and unnatural). What's wrong pervades their whole lifestyle and is therefore even more basic than all the specific errors one could list.

    Also, I saw in your response that you were very kind and generous with any who might have misunderstood something, a personality trait often lacking in online forums.

    I'm very new here and don't know how a post can be moved to a more appropriate topic category. But I'm glad it was here, because I had come to the forum initially just to try to defend a friend whose name had come up in this category, and wouldn't have seen your post otherwise. At any rate, it did become a hot topic. More people should see it, though, so if it can be moved to another thread that would probably be a good thing.

    I had one question; I didn't understand what you meant by #9. It sounds like that part might actually belong in this topic, but I wasn't exactly sure exactly what practice you are talking about.

    Having countless strangers hopping into bed at an early age without the slightest idea as to what they are doing or the serious nature of a relationship. Many end up in very abusive relationships without any escape,or protection.(even some of the third world has seen the error of this practice.)

    The fact that some of us -- myself included -- were raised in it does not change the truth about something missing for those who did choose it. Of course, there is nothing wrong with having something missing in our life; it's true of most of us. It's just a shame that we JWs took advantage of whatever was missing. It's a bigger shame that it takes so much effort to see our way back out.

    There is also a quality that goes far beyond education that seems common in a lot of people who finally did see past the JW mindset. It's one of the things that makes ex-JWs so interesting. Also, other exJWs will better appreciate the experiences and successes of their peers, without basing anything on educational levels achieved.

    Thanks again for a very thoughtful post.

    Gilgamesh

  • Joyzabel
    Joyzabel

    68 Storm,

    What an intelligent post you have written. It is very insightful from the outside looking in.

    Im sorry to have perceived that you and your wife are now divorced, all because she believes her love for Jehovah, i.e. man-made organization, is more important than love for her husband.

    Hugs, j2bf

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    nilfun,...........I do agree that everyone has their own experience. The abuse in my home had nothing to do with being JW's. I think the kind of people my folks were, made them susceptible to the mind control of that organization. Which is exactly my point. Abused people, dysfunctional people, etc., are attracted to that kind of a group.

    As for my own choices and my brothers............as adults we chose it. We weren't forced by our parents to stay in it and move up in the organization. It always comes down to a choice.

    If you weren't very involved in it, and I realize not all were as involved as my family was...........we NEVER missed meetings, and I mean NEVER. We always went in service on the weekends, sometimes both days. Mid week was part of it..........we had Bible studies, so we indoctrinated others too, then your experience was likely different than mine.

    My brother and I both chose it. We were both baptized, and it was our idea. Our parents never suggested it to either of us. We both gave up our summers, as teenagers to pioneer. Again, no one told us we should, we just did it. We thought we were supposed to, because we were baptized. Mom worked and Dad was rarely home, so they couldn't have made us do it. We were both independent kids, and were raised that way. Mom was always proud of us because we were very industrious and took the initiative to do things ourselves. Dad was not very active as a JW, but Mom was very much so, and our whole family............grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, were very prominent. It truly was our lifestyle. Our culture perhaps. That is one reason it was so hard to walk away.

    Mom told me once a few years ago, that she admired me for doing what I did. I was shocked!! Then she explained. "You could no more continue doing something you didn't wholeheartedly believe in than you could fly. You are just that kind of person. I know it was hard for you to make that decision." It still made her very sad, and still does.

    Again, if you think you were coerced, you won't take responsibility for it having been your choice. You will always be able to say.........."it was forced on me". It took me a long time to come to that conclusion. A former elder, pointed it out to me, and even wrote a paper on it for me to read. He always told me that I would never get over the anger if I didn't admit my own role in my "brainwashing". He told me I was a willing victim and pointed out my own son who didn't conform. I eventually had to admit that he was right, and i could stop being so angry. I was really, really angry at my parents, at the organization, and at God, but never at myself.

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    I had to add another comment:

    My father used to become exasperated with me, because I was argumentative as a child, and as a teenager, and as an adult. I demanded proof for everything. Their telling me something wasn't good enough, because I wanted PROOF. So, Dad said, when I was in my 20's and married, that "It's a good thing you were raised as a JW, because you would never let the people at the door get very far with you."

    I used to laugh at that. When I was 50, and learning the truth of things, that comment came back to haunt me. Why didn't I think, when he said that? I should have listened and explored it. I sure wish I had.

  • nilfun
    nilfun
    Again, if you think you were coerced, you won't take responsibility for it having been your choice

    Heh, I don't think I was coerced, I know I was coerced! And yep, we had very different experiences as JWs...

    It was not my choice, it feels like you are generalizing based upon your own personal experience. I shy away from conflict, and don't mean to be argumentative, but please, help me understand how you can say that all those raised in it chose it? I don't understand....

    Now, if I choose, as a free adult, to remain in a perpetual state of bitterness over my experiences in the JW cult, and never move on, then I am responsible for that choice.

    I guess this is one thing that we won't see eye to eye on, Mulan. You think it's something freely chosen when you are whipped with an electrical cord, wire hangers, etc etc?

    No.

    I was existing under a kind of slavery. I have long ago made peace with my mom, but I will not gloss over the past, or pretend that I willingly, happily, and freely made the choice to be a JW, cause it just isn't true.

    You did.

    I did not.

    My apologies to 68storm, I did not mean to lead your thread off topic, I am sorry...

  • 68storm
    68storm

    This is the third time that I had to type this. I am on AOL. It seems to boot you off any time it feels like it. I am also quite computer illeterate. Is there any way of retrieving info that is typed in this forum if your connection is lost? I only post from my office and dont have the choice of a cable connection.

    Here goes another attempt!

    Prisca,

    I was certain that I had included an exception for the ones born into it. Upon checking my rough copy, I noticed that, in fact, I did.

    I type extremely slow, therefore, time does not allow me to engage in my two finger movements across the keyboard and had someone else type it. They dropped the (unless you were born into it) part.

    Now that I have read a reply from Nilfun, I might have to change my thinking on this. It may be true for some but not all. It would take a of research in order to compile data to help with percentages.

    Nilfun,

    Thanks for your vote of confidence. Why did you have to tweak my mind with your observation regarding people born into it? I have to reserve judgement on that. There seems to be a lot of people that are, in fact, born into it, have tremendous pressure to conform, yet use their reasoning ability and never really succumb to total mind control.

    Gilmesh,

    I appreciate your kind reply.

    The practice that I was referring to is the pressure of avoiding, at all costs, being alone with your date. It almost seems to be an arranged marriage attitude. This seems to force total strangers into marriage just to satisfy the wts archaic rules and normal out of control hormones. Some do manage to secrectly engage in much more, but they are almost always afraid of the GESTAPO like attitude of their friends and family.

    Joy2bfree,

    It is even worse than what I have so far bdisclosed. She is willing to put aside her love for our children, (and a wonderful 2-year-old grandson) in order that she may seek this elusive happiness that seems to have eluded her.

    68storm

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf

    Hi, 68storm ---

    I too must agree that your thoughts are excellent and that you shouldn't worry about inadequacies. You're doing fine.

    About AOL --- I have it too and sometimes it will kick you off if there hasn't been enough activity. If you're doing only a short answer or email, you will probably have time, but for the long ones I usually use one of the writing features available on the computor when offline. I use Microsoft Word. That way you can take as long as you want, and can save it or whatever you want to do.

    Once it is done, hi-light it, then right click and click on "Copy" Then go to your email or here on the board and use the "Paste" feature that's on the bar above where you want to put it. That's where all the little icons are. If you put your cursor (the thing on the screen that moves when your mouse does) over the icon and hold still for a second or two, a word will pop up telling you what it is for. Just click on "Paste", and everything you just copied will appear in the box.

    Hope this is understandable and that it helps. Keep up the good work.

    LoneWolf

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