Hey Venice & Larc,
As admitted to Amazing about a week ago - and a seeming 1,000 pages of posts ago - I'm stumped by this situation.
Yes, as Larc brought up, before even the mid 80's - the general, accepted, knowledge about child molestation, rape, beatings of females & males - just wasn't talked about.........but damn, it happened. I strongly believe the *higher up* persons knew - they basically turned their heads a lot. Catholic Church has been shuttling priests for decades. Doctors know damned well what causes the scars, bruises, etc. Police know. Social force was put into action - and the general populace began to accept that it really happened regularily.
It snowballed - and now *higher ups* & professionals know - and are under penalty to report. Not so easy to sweep it under the rug. I can understand someone - of the general populace - not knowing, at all.
But a CO/DO isn't of the "general populace". He is the Middle Man. He deals with A LOT of congregations - not just 1 to 6. He knows secrets, and he knows what the WT wants him to do with those secrets. He is assigned to keep the peace - and the reputation of the WTBTS.
When I was confronted with knowledge of my own child's abuse, I was visited by several CO's over the next years (I was difficult) and then a meeting with the DO, CO, PO and City Overseer. (I was continuing to be difficult.) They DID keep me in line....finally. And they ALL told me "This is such a rare event." Only after coming on the internet did I find out they were lying to me, imho.
I can't find the post from Maximus where he stated how many pedophiles he had come across in his years of being CO/DO. It was in a thread where some of us were saying how many each of us knew. I was sure it was in Amazing's pedophile poll - but don't see it there. Most of us knew from 1 to 10. Maximus' number known was appalling. At least 40....if not much higher. On many of his posts, he spoke about comforting victims, the idiocy of untrained elders, etc.
Perhaps Max was in the trenches with his people and Franz was not so inclined? Perhaps just different styles of men? Don't know. But their recalled experiences - as both being CO/DO management in same time frame - dealing with the rape of children is totally different. Totally.
You will find that Ray will simply not discuss anything that even borders on titillation; that's a personal boundary he has drawn. Let me be quick to note this is not some kind of supercilious condescension; it's just not the way Ray is wired. Call him a gentleman, or Christian to a fault, that's just the way he is.
So we all know Howard Zenke, eh? He's now a fixture closing on 50 years, I believe, so we may have several generations here.
Let me repeat Joel's observation, which I underscore mightily based on my own many decades of oversight. I've been "father confessor" to many such individuals as Joel describes above, for whom I have a great deal of affection. Some have been able to sort out their feelings successfully, a few with help have accepted their nature, others still struggle with needless guilt that no one on earth has so far been able to assuage. ...
The name, BTW, is Kalandros. Nick. I've heard all SORTS of stories of things that occurred without anyone saying a word, during the night, "sleeping." Funny that kind of nonsense was accepted from males, but pity the poor female who did not SCREAM loud enough. Catamites for God, so that someone might not have to leave His house, Beth-El. - maximus
Ray Franz won't be reading this site. Write him.
The mob here can turn on a dime, and often does. You can and will get attacked for raising an eyebrow --- that the reader can't even see!
Jim Penton has no stomach for the board either. I understand that fully.
No lectures in response, please. - max
::much like a tyrnanical alcoholic with his family
Victor, you have put your finger on the precise model of the Bethel family today whether Patterson or Brooklyn, starting with the alcoholic Judge! That's the dirty little secret.
No one knew whether s/he would be hit or hugged. Knorr fostered this attitude, and it's been perfected into an art form. It's still the culture of the dysfunctional family that has become the abusive, dysfunctional organization. Those in the field like COs and DOs build their own resentments from the floggings they get, and on goes the dysfunction pervasively. Denial? It's the hallmark, as is repression.
You and I both could tell some stories. And I will one of these days. - max
This is what happens almost every time the issue of molestation is deeply discussed - it goes on forever, along with the good points and the hurting. I think one reason is that there are so many secondary issues which are thrown in.
In the final analysis - we just don't know truly what it was like for Franz & Max as CO/DO - then GB. Then to become "commoners" like the rest of us.
Perhaps Franz, Penton, & COJ never actually heard of a child being molested, or of an adult who had ever been molested as a child in all those combined years - totaling many decades, in three different countries. And Max knew of an enormous amount, including child suicides. Stranger things have happened.
I sat at a lunch table in HS with the same 10-/12 girls for several years (1966-68). Typical teens (17&18). After revisiting 25 yrs later, 4 of us had been raped repeatedly by family members & dates. Two of the mothers knew it was happening (one of them admitted to that). None of us ever told anyone during those years. We were all alone.
Edited by - waiting on 29 October 2002 18:46:46