Thanks for clearing this up, IW, But, assuming the bible is at least somewhat true, The whole stiff-backed & proud thing won't wash. It did'nt work for Pharoh, or saul. In fact, It said God allowed their hearts to be come hard. Is God doing this to the leader's of bethell? If so, why?
Bill Bowen's Comments on Ray Franz
I think the name [silentlambs] while very fitting was poorly chosen since many will think of Hannibal Lecter every time they hear it.
It is true that people will more than likely think of the "Silence of the Lambs" Movies when they hear about silentlambs.org.
People will think of Hannibal Lecter.
Actually, I think that is A GOOD THING.
Hannibal Lecter is probably a very fitting "poster boy" to symbolize child molesters.
I really liked deddaisy's last post on this Thread.
Ahh crap! I'd like to be able to make some comments without upsetting anybody. But I think the only way to avoid angering some here who are commenting on this issue is to keep silent. I'm sure you'll all forgive me.
First, I missed the orginal posts and did not read either Bill's or Ray's comments. (Perhaps someone could post the links?) So, I can't speak with too much certainty. However, I don't think Bill needs to be vilified for his errors any more than any of us. Ray also does not need to be treated as if he were some leader of the XJW movement and above criticsm for the comments he makes on the issue at hand. I have never liked the idea that there is some organized effort by all XJW's and that we all need to get together and accomplish something. Still, I do see a certain amount of need for what Bill and his group are doing (just as there was a need for Ray's books). The WTS is directly responsible for a lot of abuse and I have personally dreamed of walking up to the GB members I know and smacking them right in the mouth. I have a hard time criticizing Bill for some obviously agressive behavior towards that organization. I hold myself in check and have chosen not to act so blatantly and agressively. But I do sympathize with guys like Bill who have a lot of energy and a lot of anger and are driven to do some pretty unpopular things in public. If I were in Bills shoes I would try hard to keep myself in check and appologize alot when I lose control.
Some of you guys are, I think, unnecessaarily critical of Bills agenda, whatever you think it is. As I see it, fighting the Society directly is one of their tactics in their fight against the abuse. Saying things like "Run, WT, Run" is an indication of their point of attack. They obviuosly feel that in order to help stop the abuse they need to directly attack the Society and bring it to it's knees. Not unlike several groups who have tried to bankrupt some of the Catholic dioces or other church organizations in the US and Canada. Thats a tactic. Perhaps you disagree with that approach but it may have as much merit as your ideas.
I don't object to anyone directly attacking Bill or complaining that Bill has mistreated them personally. Heck, I've treated a few people pretty badly at times myself. I always appologize because I try to be a nice guy. But if I were under as much scrutiny as Bill I would undoubtedly be pissing people off right and left. Again, I can put myself in his shoes. I have avoided any public activity precisely because I know I am not yet ready to handle all the crap that goes with showing all my faults in front of so many critical and demanding people. Only perfection is tolerated when one is acting in public service. But I can imagine that if I do decide to go to battle with the WTS and other like them I will fare no better than Bill.
I guess if you want to be adored it is better to be vague and profess no knowledge of that which you managed for more than 50 years. I have read claims from some very active former leaders to the tune of "were not aware of abuse problems". I appreciate that Ray finally wrote his books and that Jim Penton has been instrumental also in helping many find a way out of the WT. But even if they do not recollect any personal involvement in any of these problems during their time as overseers they shared in it's coverup and proliferation - just as did Bill, and even myself, to some degree. It seems that Bill is easier to despise because he is not as polished as these other guys. He is "crude" by some standards. Loud and boisterous. How revolting.
I wish these other guys would stand up and admit that they were part of the pedohile and abuse problem since they helped formulate and enforce WT policy. Wouldn't it be better for them to join Bill in his fight instead of battling him? They don't have to join his organization, and they probably shouldn't, since they obviously have different agendas. But why will they not admit their own foolishness in the past and stop spreading this rediculous idea that this is a recent problem and that in their day it was not known. I believe it is because they prefer to think of themselves as more in tune with Christ's wishes and they have a more Christian demeanor. I hope I'm wrong. But that's the impression I get. Bill seems to be more willing to embarrass himself and be thought an ass, in fact at times even act like an ass, in order to further his cause. That is not a popular approach in the stuffed shirt Christian community in this country. Woe is he who does not comport himself with proper decorum in all matters and avoid disparaging Christ's good name.
Well, I'm likely off base here and am ranting at this point. I just want to say that Bill has his agenda, as does every organization. I favor letting him do his thing for I think it is likely of more help to abuse victims than has ever come the way of those under the control of that wicked organization we know as the WT Society. Let those who believe it is best done from the inside do their thing. And stop fighting one another. Keep the fight directed where it belongs. And all this with no "movement", right? Perhaps there is a "movement". But I hope it never becomes the kind of organized movement that resulted in the imprisonment of my family for generations to the likes of WT doctrine.
Seaken, what you just present was very thoughtful and well written. However, and there always is a however, how can men like Ray and Jim be at fault in a cover up, if they knew nothing of the problem. That does not make sense to me. You also said that you are glad that Ray "finally" wrote his books. He wrote them very quickly after he left the religion. In Penton's case, he told me that he could not write anything for four years after he left the relgion because of the emotion involved. Later in your post you question again that they lied when they said they did not know. They did not lie. I lived in that era, and people simply did not know. Penton pointed that out. I have pointed this out for the fourth time now. Waiting pointed it out. How many people have to explain this to you until you finally get the concept in your head. You are obviously very young and do not understand what older people are telling you.
I think it is very interesting to read what people on this Thread have said about Bill Bowen:
Your desire to burn bridges when you do not meet with agreement is evident again in your stated intent to leave JWD and start your own forum.
Bill's efforts while commendable have little chance of bringing changes. The Watchtower will not allow apostates to dictate to them! In fact, he may even be hindering the progress of change. There are still some in positions of authority in the Watchtower that know changes in the abuse policy and other policies must be made. Bill's full blown parade is impeding their efforts
One who post personal letters from mom on the internet and slings mud from private conversations on the internet does not get my vote.
Some have been hurt and others read through the arrogance- any way I am with you and am walking away. Thank god this man will now save his postings for his own site
There is a street named after Bill Bowen- It's called "ONE-WAY".
Princess the lies have been shown. WIthout any doubt it has been proven that lies have been told by this group. I know- lies were told about me and disproven by friends and people that have known me. In my earliest of conversations (telephone) Mr Bowen said in plain english that he desired to destroy the WT. Those that care to buy his propaganda are the same sheep they have always been. They have longed for the days that they had a leader and in Bowen they found one. They praise his guts for they have none. They have never come to terms with the fact that they CAN have a life without a cause or a leader. Lets all praise the wonderful works of Bowen. Let us allow him his human nature while condemning all others for having feelings and emotions. So it will be. Let them have their leader and praise his great guts for being the stand up kind of cracker that he is. Oh how I wish that I had the guts to announce my own disfellowshipping at the KH- interupting the meeting that I have not attended in 13 months to make a devine fool of myself. Then let me depart my inspired speach and squeel my tires to let them know that I HAVE GUTS. By god I will throw a stuffed lamb at your head I will. I will distribute the stuffed lamb to all parts of the globe. I will call others chicken and gutless for not throwing lambs with me. I will discredit all who dare deny me my way of doing things. And yes I will lie. I will deny my intent to destroy the WT. To hell with all that do ot want to squeel their tires with the likes of Bill Bowen. Let us praise our worthy leader. Let us all go to the local KH and squeel our tires in support of the silent lambs. Let us all throw accuations out loudly and to hell with those who ask for proof!
This time my tires squeal even louder as I circle out of the bowen temple-
As you travel down the one way street a set of lights headed your way may blind you from seeing
I have warned them of another cultish liar where they are putting false hope- just as they did with the WT- thats what I have done.
So ya going to go on supporting the efforts of another liar? The WT wasnt enough for you? Go for it my friend. How many of these 5,000 or more victims is he lieing about? Or do you not care about the ones that get hurt by this mission. Yes right now they feel good. They are getting attention. You pay a whore she'll give you attention for a few minutes too.
Some here are trying to enlighten others that Bowen has other motives and his words and actions have born this out.
He is on a mission that only USES the abuse victims to HIS advantage. On the surface it looks good- but it aint good at all
It has been clearly stated by myself and others that Bowen has a personal vendetta against the WT. He is using the abuse victims as a vehicle for his agenda.
Mr Bowens conduct has well born out that his agenda is not pure. It is well doccumented. I am not the only one that has experienced his verbal abuse and true stated purpose. These silent lambs will be further hurt by this man's feeding into thier anger. This is not good or theraputic. Dragon has stated this well. Bowen has motives that are not good for this cause. What more can I say. In one breath he claims compassion in the next he throws abusive speech toward others. I simply sound a wake up call for all the praise the great guts of bowen crowd.
Other than throwing support to this liar- what have you done trauma?
my expereince has been that bowen is a heartless sob with no compassion for any but that will serve his agenda. I will spout off on this every time I hear anyone praise the guts of bill bowen. I know what the man is capable of.
Bowen is USING the victims for an agenda that some are not aware of.
The abuse victims came to him like 9-11 came to bush- good timing for another agenda. I know more than I dare state here or elsewhere- but I know what I know
I will warn all that I can that there is something wrong with this picture- open thine eyes and see the light for thyself!
I for one will not be in line to sign up at Bill's forum where Bill gets to be moderator and no one can disagree with Bill and apparently Bill can say whatever Bill wants about those who do disagree with Bill.
If anyone is hurting the cause it is Bill. I know you disagree and frankly I don't care. Bill is wrong here and I will not say otherwise. This is a great example of the True Believers finding another mass movement. All hail Reverend Bill.
I believe he truly wants to help the victims but has lost his focus in trying to achieve his agenda.
Why does he use funds from Silentlambs to go on marches around the world throwing lambs at people? Bill is Silentlambs, I think that is pretty clear. So now you do admit that Bill wants the org to go down. He said Silentlambs didn't want that. Where are we to understand what are Bill's thoughts and what are Silentlambs? This is getting to be like the annointed getting information from God. Does the GB consult the annointed around the world to make sure everyone got the same info? Does Bill consult with all Silentlambs to make sure they all want the same thing? Bill is Silentlambs, the organization.
Bill has mis quoted and made horrible allegations
This whole thing has peaked in my disillusionment with the whole silentlambs movement, as well as some other things. Its like "follow the leader" except this time its bill bowen, not the watchtower society
Kelsey and Kenpo have nailed Mr Bowen to the wall. His actions, his demeanors, have hijacked his purported cause. He has made it very clear, that he will not accept anything less than full support. Woe be tied anyone friend or foe, for taking exception to anything Bill Bowen does or say's.
Abused victims beware. Abuse may come from those you champion to much.
Just in this one Thread, Bill Bowen has been called a liar, a founder of his own cult, a person who is using and abusing the victims, a person who wasting the donated money, a vindictive person who has his own secret agendas, and a person with a massive ego who cannot accept even the smallest criticism.Sometimes I can't believe what people will say.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 29 October 2002 3:28:7
That was nice of you to note. As for your last post, well we all know that there are talkers, and there are do-ers. As for whomever posted the work of art below, was it "Princess?"
So now you do admit that Bill wants the org to go down. He said Silentlambs didn't want that...
you wouldn't be happy to see the org go down? You've never said as much? If the sole intent of SilentlLambs was to see the "org go down," it's curious that Bill posted a bulletin here, prior to the march, in which he stated that he wanted no other issues with the Watchtower Society publicized in the SilentLambs march. If Bill's intent was truly to "bring the org down," he had enough damaging information regarding other issues to feed to the press. Why didn't he?
Hey undf'd, (your name's too long)
Interesting points you brought out. Sometimes a long thread takes on a life of it's own.........or a killing of it's own. Thanks for providing some highlights.
I'm not a total champion of any person. "We're all imperfect" - and that is a true statement.
Bill Bowen's accomplished more in a year or so than I and the vast majority of people here & in real life will accomplish in our lives. He has helped many others - most of them who he's never met. And he & SilentLambs have helped me.
Not a bad thing in my book. Are there others who have helped people too? Sure. But this isn't a contest, now is it.
Live and Let Live.
Penton pointed that out. I have pointed this out for the fourth time now. Waiting pointed it out. How many people have to explain this to you until you finally get the concept in your head. You are obviously very young and do not understand what older people are telling you
Actually Waiting said
Decades before. I remember shuddering when Maximus stated the high double digit (or triple digit) number of jw molesters he knew about because of being a CO/DO in decades of work. Yet Franz never knew of any molesters during all those decades. And those men are contemporaries - in the same work, with completely different case histories of the same types of jw's.
So I don't think that's the same point you are making. I myself do not see how he could not have had at least an smidgen of an idea. You use the fact that you yourself did not know, but were you a co, do, GB, and in the service dept???? I personally feel that if your in a position of high responsiblity and that your actions, and beliefs can affect the lives of millions of people that it's up to YOU to KNOW what's going on. In class at school if I miss a question because it was a point discussed while I was absent from lecture it is MY RESPONSIBILITY to get the notes from someone else and KNOW that information. IF that is true of a simple test in school how much more so for a policy that can affect the raping and molesting of children. IT WAS a problem back then and not knowing is not an excuse it's negligence.
I also don't feel that just because someone is older makes them more mature, or have the right to talk down to others.
Venice, I don't know the time frame of Maximus's experience. I am pretty sure that Waiting did comment on society years ago, and the silence on this issue. Jim Penton also had a very high position and had not heard of it in the years before 1980. He believes Ray on this and so do I. One thing you don't understand is that in large organizations much negative information is filtered out and never reaches the top. I do know from personal observation on that fact. As far as me being in a position of authority, it has nothing to do with me knowing the culture back then both inside and outside of the organization. Believe me things like that we not in the media, they were not even gossiped about because such evils were "skeletons in the closet" as it were, and no one outside the family knew about them. Penton commented on this point as well. Venice, it was a very different world back then, believe me.