Are Born Agains qualified to help JW's?

by sleepy 64 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Parousia

  JT,
  I'm sorry I didn't explain myself well. I always thought my problem was with some other group or denomination until I came to the realization my problem wasn't with other people but Jesus and what he said.

  I had never read his words and claims about himself without someone, namely the WTS, telling me what he was saying. I was challenged to read the book of John by itself. I did and that's when things began to unravel for me.

  I had three choices as I saw it; believe in what the WTS told me it said, believe what Jesus said at face value, or throw them both out. It wasn't a flippant decision; it was gut wrenching ... for I risked being rejected by my parents. In the end I chose to take Jesus' words at face value. I suffered loss for it, but I don't regret it.

  As I see it, I gained something I can't put a price on. I joined myself to Jesus because I figured if he thought I was worth dying for, he was worth believing in. No one had ever put that kind of value on me. It was free to me but cost him a lot. It was an offer I couldn't refuse.

  As to the hell question. What would I say? If I accept that God made the universe and all that's in it, and say I don't want anything to do with him, taking into account that he says he is light and love and all that, then hell must be the absence of God and all he made. Where does that leave me? I guess the absence of him must be hell. But it's my choice. No one has foisted it on me.

  Edited by - Parousia on 15 September 2002 19:43:26
• 

  JosephMalik

  Joseph, I am really sorry but I read your post twice and I'm still not quite certain what you mean. I find it a bit sad when people call others "born agains". Don't you?

  DJ,

  I have no idea why you did not get what I said. The application that I made brought it up to date. The term born again is not a title, it is a truth. And it originally applied only to Jews like Nicodemus who believed in the LAW as the way to salvation.

  DJ said: I mean as far as I've seen whether a person goes by the name Lutheran or Methodist or Presbyterian or Baptist or Non-denominational etc. they all have the same exact basic understanding of the gospel.

  Yes they do, but that does not mean they have what we are calling truth here. They have a long way to go before their views can be called truth.

  DJ said: Born again refers to the new life lived as a Christian and dying to the former ways. All Christians must be born again.

  They should if they came out of darkness such as the WT and I explained this. But most are not since they hold teachings that are not part of the faith.

  DJ said: don't know why such a big deal is made about this phraseology. Christianity is born again believers who make up the body of Christ.

  And who are they? Catholics, Baptists, Lutheran, Methodists some others? Does the body of Christ exist divided? Would a true believer correct mistaken views if they are shown them? Yes! Can a Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist or some other do that? No not really. Secretly perhaps as long as they keep it to themselves. How then can one be born again if they must support views shown to be wrong?

  Nicodemus was not encouraged to disagree with Jewish doctrine on LAW and salvation or to sneak around behind their back. He was to give it up completely, leave and not look back as if was not even born into it. That is what I said as well.

  Joseph
• 

  DanTheMan

  They have a long way to go before their views can be called truth

  That line said it all. Once again I say, that BA's in spirit are no different from JW's. You've gotta get it just right, or prepare for dire consequences beyond what you can imagine. barf
• 

  Introspection

  The bible is the root of JW problems , and following that book in which ever way you wish will always be in error.

  You'll always be in error? Wow that's pretty good, 100%. Where else would you get such accuracy? I mean, even if you blindly go about things sometimes you'll do something right just by accident, if there is certainty there it's worth investigating.

  Of course, I could agree with that in the sense of if you follow any book, you'll be in error spiritually. That may sound like sacriledge to some, but the fact is the nature of a book is symbols written in ink on paper isn't it? It's an inanimate object, not withstanding places where it says things like the word of God is alive and exerts power. Right there you have the distinction too, one is called the bible, one is referred to as the word of God. (try not to get caught up on believing whether there is any truth to that statement, my point is there is some "live" factor) Now I'm sure many just doesn't care about that at this point, but maybe I can keep your attention by pointing to the fact that you are the one interpreting it, or as pointed out in the above quote you have to following the book. The whole thing depends upon some intelligence, the printed book is not going to miraculously take control of your mind for better or worse. You might look at it this way: You use your mind to do things, and your mind uses thoughts to do things. Sometimes talk of this type comes very close to saying thoughts use your mind to do things, which in a sense can be true but ultimately it took somebody to write it and get the stuff on paper and not to mention the preaching and all that, so if you want to blame something blame something that has some intelligence, instead of implying you were taken in by an inanimate object, which frankly just makes you look bad.

  If anything you can blame the mind, and a truly honest person will take some responsibility for their own actions as an adult. (if you were raised as a witness, go ahead and blame your parents - but if that's in the past then the best you can do is blame them for most of it, if presently you are an adult that makes your own decisions) If you take the opposite side of JWs, the bible or whatever you haven't really changed, it's still one sided, it's just the other side. In fact, whenever you have some sense of "against" then you are only seeing one side of something, even if it is being against seeing things in a one-sided way. To really know the truth is a matter of seeing that the previous view was a limited perspective, but then again I guess that's not really what everybody is interested in.
• 

  garybuss

  
  I did get help with doctrinal issues and questions I had as well as friendship and a welcoming attitude from lots of people who follow the Christian tradition and consider themselves born again. I still do. Several of my friends I hold dear are born again Christians. I just refer to them as Christian.
  
  They welcomed me to their seminary library and let me use their copy machine all I needed. They had countless lunches with me and invited me into their homes for meals and friendship and sometimes for a Bible study. They taught me orthodox Christianity and it is a LOT different than what Jehovah's Witnesses taught me orthodox Christianity was.

  A friendly and helpful group was the Catholics. The Priests and the Nuns and the individual members, and my special friend who was educated by the Jesuits, all helped me without any condidions. They answered all my many questions without defense or fear and invited me to stay and be a friend and I accepted. I was shocked to learn from them that the Catholic excommunication just means excluded from communion and no shunning or snubbing is required or practiced in connection to that element of their religion.
  
  I was also welcomed and helped lots by the Jewish Rabbi. He answered my questions about Jewish history and the manners and customs and festivals of Judaism. He directed me to books to read and to more friends to make and sit with.
  
  The Unitarians had their sages and they sat with me and challenged my long held opinions and they were kind and they laughed the most and gave me a half a dozen books to read about their tradition. I read and re-read them with gratitude.
  
  The only group that refused to sit down with me and answer my questions were the Jehovah's Witnesses.
  
  So, yes, Christians are qualified to help me. They did and still are doing it. I thank them and I hope they never quit.
  
  gb
  
  
  
• 

  DJ

  The term born again is not a title, it is a truth

  Joseph: This is exactly what my entire point was. I'm not sure why you can't see that. It seems to me that all you have done is make Blanket statements. You gave no specifics whatsoever...I guess that is why I have no idea what you are talking about. Aint buying yer books...either. dj
• 

  JosephMalik

  Joseph: This is exactly what my entire point was. I'm not sure why you can't see that. It seems to me that all you have done is make Blanket statements. You gave no specifics whatsoever...

  DJ,

  Why do you say this? I explained it in detail. You applied it in a general way to XJWs and all Christians or to all churches and I knew that is the way you understood the term. I will let the readers see for themselves who was specific and who was not.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 15 September 2002 22:20:2
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  JT

  thanks for your thoughts on the matter- while i must admit i find your comment somewhat more confusing. when i asked you about hell your reponse was:

  "then hell must be the absence of God"

  and this is really what point is each little group got thier own Brand of "Truth" and in your case you even got your own brand of "Born Again"-

  I have never heard a BA refer to hell in such a manner- in fact they usually march out the Ole Fire and Brimstone/ Hell and Damnation- when asked about What is waiting for folks who don't accept thier Brand of Worship

  They would in fact loook upon you as being "weak" or "soft"-

  I guess your post only highlights the problem that all belief systems have for the most part when they declare it's my way or the Highway-

  but thanks for taking the time to respond
• 

  Trotafox

  Of course they are. Better. I am a Born Again Christian and Ex-JW and I understand the mind set of a JW much better than a non-JW. If one was a Christian before becoming a JW, the return road is not as difficult as it is for those who have experienced nothing but the JW religion. Christians who have never been a JW simply cannot comprehend the emotional, controlling grip of the organization and the fear.

  A Born Again is a Christian...period. Going to church, giving and serving will not change our sinful nature. Accepting Christ as our Savior, expressing it through baptism, and being empowered through the Holy Spirit to live a godly life changes your life and your behavior. It is not a matter of being in some denomination or in some church. Our soul and very nature are changed through the death of Christ on the cross. It is an issue of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and that personal relationship comes through a new birth. He begins to work in our lives; sort of a process of regeneration or renewing, i.e., a new birth. But a person has to make this decision themselves. You can't force it down their throats.....ever....and then beat them up when we think they don't measure up. Ridiculous. That is wrong. That is exactly why most people leave their churches. There are going to be downs and ups and downs and ups in everyone's lives. God knows that and loves us for just hangin' in there and doing our best.

  Sigh! I just know I'm going to get beat up by the atheists so I'm going to duck out and go to bed now. Work tomorrow.

  Trot

  Edited by - Trotafox on 15 September 2002 23:24:34

  Edited by - Trotafox on 16 September 2002 0:29:19
• 

  plmkrzy

  The whole thing depends upon some intelligence, the printed book is not going to miraculously take control of your mind for better or worse.

  LOL.. I did enjoy reading your response. It was interesting.

  I have never heard a BA refer to hell in such a manner- in fact they usually march out the Ole Fire and Brimstone/ Hell and Damnation- when asked about What is waiting for folks who don't accept thier Brand of Worship

  I do have to agree with JT on this one.

  I've heard many many many people of various religions including some JWs refer to themselves as being "Born Again" In the sense the bible speaks of.

  I've heard my mom refer to her self, and i've heard a few other jws refer to their self as being born again. However, I also had the misfortune of dating a self proclaimed "Born Again Christian who never stopped shocking me with biblical ignorance while at the same time demonstrated a lot of intelligence and compassion in ''other' areas

  I also have a brother-in-law who is a self proclaimed Born Again who is very much the same way along with employees I have worked with and neighbors and a few friends who decided to jump on the "Born Again band wagon back when it was first becoming a popular thing to do, like a fad. And the Hell Fire doctrine was very much a part of their belief. All who do not agree with them, and they have until the very last min. of their life to change there mind and be saved, will be sent to the fiery pits of hell with Satan and With all the Jews. This straight from the mouths of many "Born Agains". These are my personal expierences.

  I'm not saying they were "bad". Just that they were mostly pretty darn nice people (including my ex boyfriend) UNTIL certain subjects came up and then the "die hard" ones would have a sudden change of attitude as if someone snapped their fingers and turned them into other people. Creepy.

  I don't remember which religions were acceptable. I shut of my hearing after a while and paid no attention after hearing enough bigotry.

  They believed that MOST other religions are pagan. There is a Lutheren Church across the street from where I live and I have heard that church refered to a pagan.

  Most of my friends that got involved with it dropped out "into purgatory" since they could no longer buy the hellfire stuff.

  Garybuss

  I am so sorry you experienced so much crap when you were a JW. The kind of troubles you had and the way you were received with them were awful and inexcusable. I could have never treated you and your wife in such a horrible way.

  BTW Trotafox

  You sound very sensible. But nothing like the BAs around me. lol

  Edited by - plmkrzy on 16 September 2002 0:7:31