Anyone still bothered by the demons?

by wednesday 124 Replies latest jw friends

Sentinel

The JW's implanted the demon scare into me when I was thirteen. Up until then, I was only frightened by the boogieman who was under my bed and would grab my feet if I got out of bed when I wasn't supposed to. (A nice parental control devise.)
I have posted elsewhere as to some of my own experiences. I do not however, like to discuss any of the really frightening things that were from the dark side. All I can say, is that you can tell which ones are harmful and which aren't. Sometimes it is our own fear of the unknown, or labeling done by JW's which causes us to believe all these things are from Satan. I do not agree.
Unexplainable things occur. If something really bad is happening, get away from it. Go towards the light. Go towards the good. I never doubt another person's experience.
When I left the JW's, my fear of demons and such went right along with them. Hummm, what does that tell me? It tells me that the JW's are fixated on the demons and the dark side. I wonder why.
Sentinel/Karen
Zechariah

REM,
Nope. To me it means that anyone who is on a search for truth must at some point in their life doubt things that they "know".
Once again we agree. That point in time was near seven years ago when I left completely the JWS. I doubted everything they ever taught me and found them to be liars on every subject. I agonized in deepest meditation on life and its strange but true realities. I learned for a certainty that the greatest part of life consists of things that cannot be seen.
Except that is in regard to belief in a creator. There is no doubt there. It is inherent knowledge in the core of my being there is a God. I believe it also to be the case with all men though many like yourself will decide to delude themselves with the fantasy there exists no evidence for the existence of God.
ZECH says: I am willing to believe in God whether or not there is evidence to do so.
REM says:
Good for you. But then why do you not believe in Santa Claus whether or not there is evidence?

I didn't say there was not evidence for the belief in God. There is overwhelming evidence. I merely said I would be willing to believe in God even if there was not any.
The only faith in question is faith in the Creator. He is the one Almighty God. As an apple is a apple by any other name I will not debate with anyone what they call their creator. Further discussion of the nature of the Creator must follows a concession of his very existence.
I'd be happy to believe in God, Santa, Demons, et al if there is evidence.

You are totally validating my contention that nobody believes anything they are unwilling to believe. Your constant claim that there is no evidence of a creator but only to uncreation is both preposterous and unreasonable. To use the words of wisemen like Francis Bacon to somehow imply they too are unbelievers in God is erroneous, disceptive, and unfair. I guess you feel Albert Einstein and Sir Isaac Newton are gullible fools for their belief in God. You completely skated around the analogy I gave of stumbling on a computer for the first time. You would have to know within yourself somebody created it. Denial is vanity. Nobody would believe you if you claim you see there no evidence of creation. I don't know about you but I know myself to be as the Bible encourages me to that I am wonderfully MADE (creation).
By the way... which god do you believe in? There is just as little evidence backing Zeus and Brahma, why do you chose the Christian god over them? Certainly not by evidence, because there is none for any. The choice is irrational. Abelieverof things without evidence is the definition of an irrational person. You have chosen to disbelieve in a myriad of gods, but you held on to one. Have you ever even considered the possibility that there is no god?
There is no benefit in not believing.
Interesting logic. What, to you,is the benefit of not believing in Zeus? :) But I do think there are benefits to non-belief in imaginary gods. There is the benefit of not being deluded in a fantasy world. The benefit of not being superstitious and paranoid about demons and the spirit world. The benefit of never having the possibility of being entagled in an organized religion and all of the negative things that come along with that (time, money, etc.). The benefit of seeing all men as equal, instead of all of the religious prejudices prevalent in the world today (muslims vs christians). The benefit of deciding the best way to live my own life, instead of relying on an old book written by ancient goat herders. The benefit of not being encumbered by cognitive dissonance. The benefit of being free from barbaric traditions and ceremonies. The benefit of being a rational person and the self respect that comes along with it.
It seems to me that you have been taken in by "Pascal's Wager". I just hope for your sake that if there is a god (or gods)you chose the correct one(s). :
All this talk about which God I worship is simply a red herring on your part to distract from the only thing being debated here. That is whether or not there is a creator. No further debate is profitable to pursue if we are not in agreement on that simply FACT.
Your fears about being deluded is what I have always said it was. Fear of being further disappointed. If you don't trust God and claim he doesn't even exist for you then you have no expectations of him wherein he cant disappoint you.
This is a very real lottery with real important, significant prizes to be won. But you've got to be in it to win it. We do that only by our faith and trust in the creator. I have no opinion on belief in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. It applies to nothing we are discussing.
Zechariah
Edited by - zechariah on 13 September 2002 23:24:22
seven006

Zechariah
<<<Except that is in regard to belief in a creator. There is no doubt there. It is inherent knowledge in the core of my being there is a God. >>>
So what you are saying here is all the research, historical study, archeological investigations, and the examination of both the earth's obvious evolution as a planet as well as the astronomical and biological investigations are completely a total waste of time because the knowledge in the core of your being is absolutely right?
I have just one request, when you are on the cover of Time magazine as the one and only human with absolute proof of god and the secrets of the universe could I get an autographed copy for myself and a couple more for my friends?
Dave
Zechariah

seven006,
Cute post but inaccurate.
So what you are saying here is all the research, historical study, archeological investigations, and the examination of both the earth's obvious evolution as a planet as well as the astronomical and biological investigations are completely a total waste of time because the knowledge in the core of your being is absolutely right?

What you know has nothing to do with what I know as knowing is for humans a state of mind. The only one with absolute knowledge is the one you claim doesn't exist. Knowing anything for humans requires a exercise of faith and trust. Never will I believe I am doomed to die because someone tells me so. Neve will I believe despite anyones so called evidence or proof that God doesnt exist. Unacceptable and does not benefit me in any way. Unbelievers ae no different in this regard. All unbelievers harp on needing sure proof of something before they will believe it. No such proof exists anywhere when someone doesnt want to believe. Read my post again. I am not claiming to know anything anyone else does not. Neither am I the only one willing to acknowledge outloud his inherent knowledge of God. Just like we equip our created computer with basic programming God gave his own "Little Computer People" basic programming which for one thing tells him he is created by God.
I am just most willing to believe what is beneficial for me. Again I say there is no benefit to unbelief. It is totally defeatist resorted to by fear of disappointment.
Zechariah
Edited by - zechariah on 14 September 2002 2:12:57
funkyderek

I am just most willing to believe what is beneficial for me. Again I say there is no benefit to unbelief. It is totally defeatist resorted to by fear of disappointment.

Zechariah, you continue to assert such things without providing evidence. Most atheists are not afraid of a god they don't believe in. Some are certainly disappointed to realise that there isn't a big invisible guy in the sky who's going to make everything OK, but many feel empowered by the realisation that we only get one shot at life, and that we alone have the power to make things better for ourselves and our children. Rather than viewing this life as something that must be endured to get to heaven/nirvana/paradise, they view it as precious and immensely important, and act accordingly.
You confuse cause and effect by "believing" what you think it is beneficial to believe. Beliefs should - in an honest person, must- be based on the available evidence, not what you would like to be true, or any "inherent knowledge." (Even if such "inherent knowledge" exists, it could just as easily be a product of natural selection as part of a design by a creator, especially if, as you claim, believing is beneficial.)
You seem to have constructed an unassailable logical argument for your worldview, but unfortunately it uses rules of logic that are only found inside your head. You protect yourself from criticism by vacillating between evidential and faith-based arguments, by making unfounded assertions and ignoring or dismissing all criticism. That's not going to work here. If your arguments aren't solid, they'll be picked apart. Instead of starting with the view that everyone really believes in gods, but just pretends not to for selfish reasons, try to work from the beginning. Assume nothing, and see where the evidence leads. If people post evidence that conflicts with your belief system, examine it. If you can find a flaw, point it out. If you can't, then change your beliefs accordingly.
seven006

Zechariah
<<<Cute post but inaccurate.>>>
I try to be cute as often as I can, it keeps people from expecting too much form me. I'm glad I finally found the one person on the planet with all the accurate answers about life, this should be interesting.
<<<What you know has nothing to do with what I know as knowing is for humans a state of mind.>>>
I'm not a professional writher and I have only been speaking the English language for about 47 years but that sentence needs some clarification, it doesn't make any sense. What exactly where you trying to say? Could you take another shot at it am make it a bit clearer?
<<<The only one with absolute knowledge is the one you claim doesn't exist>>>
I thought you were the one with absolute knowledge? You exist don't you? You are writing these posts aren't you? You did say this "Except that is in regard to belief in a creator. There is no doubt there. It is inherent knowledge in the core of my being there is a God. " didn't you? Now tell me, who has the absolute knowledge, you or the one you claim is the creator? Who exactly do you think the creator is out of all the gods on this planet that people believe in?
<<<Knowing anything for humans requires a exercise of faith and trust.>>>
This is not true at all. I have neither faith or trust that the sun will come up tomorrow but whether I do or don't it still does. The same thing with the moon or having air to breath or paying my bills or the fact that I have three sons or that after trying to develop my taste buds to be more accepting of different kinds of food the absolute fact without any faith or trust is I still hate liver. Most of human existence is based not on faith or trust but in facts. "Faith" come in after one begins to "believe" in something that cannot be absolutely proven with tangible facts. Faith then nullifies belief and takes it from a calculated hypotheses to blind trust.
<<<Never will I believe I am doomed to die because someone tells me so.>>>
Again, the word "believe" comes into play. If you were in the middle of a bank robbery and one of the robbers put a gun to your head and said if you move I am going to blow your brains out would you believe it then? I take it you are a Christian and believe in the Christian god. If so, do you believe that all of humankind is in a world of shit because a talking snake told a naked lady to eat a piece of fruit?
<<<Neve will I believe despite anyones so called evidence or proof that God doesnt exist.>>>
Good for you, stick to your guns buddy but do it with respect for others beliefs and thoughts. Yours and others like you share a common belief, it is not proven fact but simply a common thought taught to them and shared by those who happen to live in the same country. If you were born in India or China, or Iran you would have just as strong of a belief as you do now but it would be for a completely different god with completely different outcomes. So now you can ask yourself which god is the real one? Who has the real truth about god? If only one belief in one god is absolutely right than the others are absolutely wrong. Do you actually think you would be a Christian if you were born in India to Hindu parents and brought up in the Hindu faith?
<<< I am not claiming to know anything anyone else does not. Neither am I the only one willing to acknowledge outloud his inherent knowledge of God.>>>
Knowing and believing are two different things. You have stated before that you "know" god exists and then you change it to you have "faith" and "trust" that god exists, which is it? Just because you have others who say the same thing doesn't in fact make it true. Millions say Allah exists and another group of millions say Buddha exists while millions of others say Krishna exists and then there is the more western thinking that Christ exists. Who is right? Do you know enough about the other gods and saviors to absolutely state that they do not exist?
<<<Just like we equip our created computer with basic programming God gave his own "Little Computer People" basic programming which for one thing tells him he is created by God.>>>
Wow, that must be really cool. I have just one question to this one, who created god?
<<<I am just most willing to believe what is beneficial for me. Again I say there is no benefit to unbelief. It is totally defeatist resorted to by fear of disappointment.>>>
You hit the nail right on the head here Bubba, it is beneficial "for you." Your belief in god and your trust or faith in his existence has one absolute in your life and that is it fits into your desired existence in life. That does not mean it is absolutely true or that everyone else is doomed because we do not share your personal feelings. You seem to feel "why not believe in god", what can it hurt? Well, in the game of religion and god wars the main emphasis seems to be on which god sponsors the winning team. If the way you believe is not the right way then believing in your god may be a complete and total waste of time. If the other people who believe in the other gods are right then you are no better off than all of us who either doubt the existence of god or do not believe in him at all.
Kind'a makes you think doesn't it?
Dave
nakedmvistar

wednesday,
Demons are real and they can cause havoc in our lives. It's foolish to assume that "it's just all in your head" or their just hallucinations. Just because you leave your faith doesn't mean you throw away your faith in God. If there is a battle between God an Satan then we can assume that we are targets of satan's anger. your flirtation with psychics will only exacerbate this intrusion! These demons, which are NOT the fallen angels, have a hunger for the negative energy we produce. They have the ability to manipulate different areas of our lives to achieve the desired effects. Consulting psychics only further opens the "gateway" allowing more of these beings to "SEE YOU." The fact that you are inactive further irritates the problem because now you have absolutely no protection against them. There are other things which can also attract these beings. Music with aberrant lyrics or repetitive drum beats will also attract the "gods". My major was Religious philosophy and many a times I sat in on different religious rituals which tended to attract some not-so-nice beings. repetitive chanting, and drum beats and offering of animal sacrifices (the blood opens the gateway) were all in the mix. But once you "invite" them in, it's very difficult to escort them out. My suggestion is to resolve your inactivity with God and abandon your flirtation with the spirit realm.
Valis

My suggestion is to resolve your inactivity with God and abandon your flirtation with the spirit realm.

Whatever! The very reason that demons are a part of Wednesday's life is the association w/"God" to begin with. Jehovah's Witnesses use the concept of demons to rationalize many things. Most of all thier need to control so many aspects of the life of every member of the congregation. "Flirtation" with the spirit realm is an idiotic notion and yet another scare tactic to get people in line w/the Christian concept of god. Yet another load of crap. Please come back and play another day...next time bring something besides your own spurious anecdotal "evidence" to make a point or help someone with what may be a potentially serious mental health issue.
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
nakedmvistar

all hail the all knowing valis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your hatred of God is apparent. You may of had it "rough" while in the jw religion but let go already!!!! This person may or may not have a mental condition but to ASSUME this can also be equally as dangerous! Just because you lack a faith in God doesn't mean we all do. I have seen many strange things in some of these rituals and to assume that it can be easily explained or can be attributed to a mental condition is a very narrow point of view to take valis.
Valis

When one leaves the borg and that crap follows you it does throw up signs that there are unresolved issues in one's head that need to be taken care of. I don't pretend to know everything, nor as a newbie do you know anything about me. I have seen the very real effects of "spiritual" living on my family. Ruined I tell you. I also pick up on sarcasm very well so lets not go there. I don't hate anyone's belief in Dog, I simply don't believe there is one or more of any diety.
This person may or may not have a mental condition but to ASSUME this can also be equally as dangerous!
Really? I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion, but I would surely like to know. You hint at some third unknown but unproveable reason for believing and experiencing demons...well other than your "take my word for it" stance. Not today thank you very much. Perhaps mine is a narrow point of view, but until I see visible and tangible proof to the contrary I will leave the myths and fairy tales to you. As well, my comments are not ever meant to slander anyone's notion of Dog, but merely to point out that you can't fix something by looking to the very cause for answers. Namely the indoctrination of the mind as to believing in that which can't be seen but is surely there and causing troubles in one's life. A laughable idea, that once again, is employed to keep people living in delusion.
Sincerely,
District Overbeer

Anyone still bothered by the demons?

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