by Trauma_Hound 30 Replies latest jw friends
Read ALL of the Hebrew scriptures closely and you will NEVER find
ANY reference to a servant of Jehovah using "Jehovah will take care of
it" to sit back and not worry about injustices being carried out in his
name.
This is brilliant, just where is this Scripture that says "Jehovah will take care of it"?
The problem is that this has now become a witness mantra, maybe next time I hear it I will ask whereabouts exactly that Scripture is to be found.
Englishman.
If you read the bible you will see that those who were truly
zealous for jehovah ALWAYS spoke out and acted against injustice and
wrong doing. Look at all the prophets who were killed by the Jews and
kings of Israel. The Kings of Israel were the ANNOINTED servants of
God. However, when they started walking the wrong path, Jehovah put it
into the hearts of his prophets to prophesy against them and try to
disuade them from their wrong path.
Excellent reasoning, TH. Tell your little brother "BRAVO!" for us.
Yes I'm proud of him, but he's still a tad big arogant, a JW throwback.
I think little brother is fading away a lot faster than you give him credit for
He did a great job there. Perfectly stated.
To the outside, it's slow, but internally no, it's not slow, he's marrying a catholic girl. LOL
...he's still a tad big arogant...
Hmmm....
I wonder if that runs in the family!???
Oh teejay, how can you say such a thing.
you can wait on the jehovaH IN BROOKLYN!!! THE ONLY THING THAT WILL MAKE THE GOD IN BKLYN CHANGE!!!!!!! IS $$$$$$$$$$$$$ OR CAESAR PUTTING THEIR HEADS ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK!!!!!
So, TH, how did YOU respond to your aunt/uncle's Bible references?
Or did you pass on a reply, and let your brother have at 'em? (He did very good, too!)
You know, it seems for every scriptural account they could use in their defense, there are so many others that could be used by the likes of us to prove otherwise. I've been wanting to write out something I saw on TV a few nights ago, but was hoping they would show it again so I could tape it, and it would be more fresh in my mind. It just blew me away when I saw it (would you believe a "rapper-type-prophet" on the religious channel, Kim Clements is his name, and he calls himself a prophet -- I'd never seen or heard of him before -- interesting to watch this guy). I had been thinking about the entire Silent Lambs ordeal while in bed, and began flipping by the channels and I heard the word "CULT," so I immediately stopped to watch, and here's this "long haired" guy sitting in a captain's chair on the stage. He said a Cult means you worship your BELIEFS rather than GOD. WOW! One little sentence. One little definition. Packed a powerful punch!
If that wasn't enough in itself, he then begins talking in Bible-story-speak, and then he got up out of his captain's chair and began "half talking-half rapping" these stories (really great stuff, too. He briefly covered: Ananias being sent to greet Paul but Ananias didn't want to go, but he HAD to go because God had already 'shown his face' to Paul in advance; Joseph's dreams while in prison to the baker and ???; Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo and the fourth angel who was with them (who no one could see but Nebuchadnezzar; so who is YOUR fourth angel, etc.); Daniel in the lions' den causing the Great King of Babylon to actually praise God...etc.) ... but THEN he started on the story that boggled my brain, and by now the music was playing and he was up and about walking around the stage, and he had moved into Full-Rap-Mode for this one, which was the longest of all the stories... He began with:
"They were CONSUMING THEIR CHILDREN...
When they were CONSUMING THEIR CHILDREN... "
(I thought I was gonna flip out! I couldn't believe I was hearing this... Later I looked it up: It is all taken from 2 Kings 6, beginning around verse 28 through chapter 7 to its end.)
Samaria had been at war with the Arameans and there was famine in the city of Israel.
They had sealed their city gates - NO ONE WOULD COME IN and NO ONE WOULD GO OUT. They were so pathetic, they were CONSUMING THEIR OWN CHILDREN....
(One of the Israelite women had cried out to the King for him to save her. The King replied: "If Jehovah does not save you, from what source shall I save you?" and she said she would consume her children, and the King RIPPED HIS GARMENTS in grief over what she said. [2 Kings. 6:26,27]. Keep this in mind for later analytical discussion ;-)
(Notice, too, in the NWT: 2 Kings 6:33. Elisha was in his house with the older men and he said a messenger was coming to cut off his head, so they should shut the door and not let him in. But the King replied to Elisha: "Here THIS is the calamity from Jehovah. WHY SHOULD I WAIT ANY LONGER FOR JEHOVAH?" --- I'm wondering, though: Was the king referring to the famine as the calamity, or was he referring to Elisha's head being cut off as the calamity?) Anyway, back to the Rapper...
Yet Elisha the prophet TOLD THEM WHAT TO DO. He said,
"Something's Gonna Happen About This Time Tomorrow... (2 Kings 7:1)
Something's Gonna Happen About This Time Tomorrow...
But YOU WON'T SEE IT (or benefit from it, because they doubted Elisha's words). (2 Kings 7:2)
(The point he was making was that the Israelites had gated themselves up in the city and would not GO FORTH to take care of their problems (food) in FAITH as Elisha was telling them to do, i.e., GO OUT TO THE CAMP of the Arameans. But, NO, they would NOT GO, they would NOT BELIEVE IT, so they would stay and keep consuming their children. He was pointing out that once God speaks a word, SOMEBODY HAS TO GO OUT AND FULFILL THAT WORD. So, WHO's going to GO??? SOMEBODY'S GOT TO "WALK THE WALK."
Just so happens there are four LEPERS sitting OUTSIDE the city gate, because they had decided, "If we go INTO the city, we will die due to the famine. And if we stay right here outside the gate, we will die due to the famine. SO WE MIGHT AS WELL GO TAKE A WALK over to the camp of the Arameans. If they spare us, they will feed us and we will live. If not, they will kill us, and THEN we will die."
Now this Rapper/Prophet/Preacher on the TV moves into this great WALKING segment, rapping and walking all the way, about how God made the measely, mangled feet of the four lepers sound like the thunder of chariots and horses of a great army, vibrating the ground so much that the Arameans thought Israel was coming after them, and they fled their camp and left all their goods and their food. The lepers came into the camp, and not a soul was around, so they helped themselves to the food and tents and gold and clothes, etc. They were having such a great time enjoying the spoil, it took them until the NEXT day to decide they were being selfish about it, so they went back to the city to report to the King, and he still was leary. He figured it was a "set up" by the Arameans. So he sent out further "men/chariots/messengers" to go and make sure what the lepers said was true. The messengers found out that it was true, and they came back with that report to the King.
However, due to the fact that the King's arm guard (the one who had doubted Elisha to his face) that "Something Really WOULD Happen About This Time Tomorrow," well, he was trampled to death by the people scrambling out of the city gate to get to the enemy camp/food, so he did not eat from any of it but DIED, just as Elisha had foretold.
Now, call me whacky, but this was really cool, seeing this Rapper Preacher Dude telling this story. I got a kick out of his repeating, "When the WORD goes OUT (from God), SOMEBODY's GOT to WALK THE WALK 'cuz SOMETHING'S GONNA HAPPEN THIS TIME TOMORROW..." and "WHO's Gonna [allow the spirit in them to] Make It Happen"?
Anybody wanna play "Analyze and Interpret Scripture"? I need some help filling in the blanks. And since the "Word of God is ALIVE and Exerts Power," I always take that to mean it is ALIVE for ANY situation in any generation, and can be applied accordingly...
1. Elisha - The Apostates ("Something's Gonna Happen This Time Tomorrow...") or B. Bowen - ??
2. The King of Israel - B.Bowen - ??? (who grieved when the women in the city pleaded for him to save them, and later said, WHY SHOULD I WAIT ANY LONGER ON JEHOVAH?) -- OR -- would the faithless King better represent the GB who initially said to the woman, "If Jehovah will not save you, WHAT do you expect ME to do about it?"
3. The King's Arm Guard who Did Not Believe the prophesy of Elisha - The GB (and/or the GB's Lawyers?)
4. The Women and Men Consuming their Children - Pedophiles and the blinded JWs in the congs who continue to follow the GB even after they know better (?)
5. The Four Lepers - The Silent Lambs themselves who figured, "If we stay in the Hall, we will die. If we sit outside the Hall we will die. So we might as well WALK THE WALK over to the enemy camp (Government/Courts/Media, etc.). If they help us, we will live. If they kill us, well, we were going to die anyway.
6. The five messengers the King sent out AFTER the lepers/Lambs came back with their story and with some of the goods & gold - (who might these messengers represent?? -- if the GB is the king, they could represent the Watchtower SPIES; or, if the King represents B.Bowen, they could represent his Apostate helpers.)
7. Once the five messengers (who are ???) reported the truth back to the King (??) of what the Lepers/Lambs said, all the people/JWs in the KH/city rushed out to feed themselves - (?? we could say all the Dubs welcomed back every single Lamb in order to "feed" on the REAL TRUTHS about the WTS!) ;)
8. And Elisha/B.Bowen got to say to the King's Arm Guard/GB, "Because you said it would not happen, you will not eat any of it and you will die," and die he (the GB) did as the JWS trampled over them to get to the REAL FOOD.
Am I trying too hard? As you can see, I got a little confused on who's who. Anybody feel free to have a go at it. I'm pooped! I'll check back in 2morrow.
Thanks for reading and hoping this effort is in line with the heart of the Trauma's topic about the Lambs and Scriptures used (by his aunt/uncle) to try and explain-away the WTS' position.
Grits
Eeeegads. Edited to fix too many typos!
Edited by - Grits on 2 September 2002 17:25:10
Dad's reply :P ack! Ugg I wish he would wake up.
The one thing not recognized here is, that we have only hear-say and
accusation from questionable sources as to what is going on. In all cases
recorded in the Bible, those who took action had direct and truthful
knowledge, either by witnessing it themselves, or by divine revelation. I
have neither of those to go on. So, not having accurate and positive
knowledge, I can truthfully rely on Jehovah to "Make matters right".
If I become convinced of the facts in these cases then, yes, I am obligated
to speak out. But not until then. We do not want to become like the nations,
or those whose whole agenda is not love, but to tear down and cause
division. Love builds up, but hate tears down. NO person can be moved to
love and fine works on the basis of lies and half truths.
Since most of the matters that Charlie has been sending to me and the rest
of you concern matters that are not in my area of the world or in my
congregation, there is nothing for me to speak out against. Those brothers,
both the elders in the various congregations and those who oppose them will
have to stand before Jehovah and Jesus Chris on their own merits. Why get
heated up over this wicked world when the true commission for us is to do
good and preach the word. We can use these events as warnings for ourselves
not to get caught up in wickedness. Some things are beyond our power to
resolve, and in such times, we do need to rely on Jehovah, if we truly
believe in him.
But, what is in our power to accomplish, is to teach others how to truly
love Jehovah and Jesus Christ, and how to serve them in a righteous manner.
When we teach love, we fulfill the requirements of the law. All other things
are just a distraction from our main purpose. If I were directly involved
with these other events, then I would speak the truth whether for or against
the Brothers in Question.
My reply:
Well just watch the papers and news next thrusday or friday, and you will see just how local this problem is. I personally know at least 3 people that have been sexually abused in my area. Bill Bowen has over 5000 documented cases, outside of the WTS's database. You do realise the WTS has never denied having a pedophile database, they just dispute the numbers in it. And how exactly is standing by the way side, and letting elders re-victiomize rape victims teaching love? Let me quote you what Chris wrote in response earlier, I'm not sure you were on that e-mail, and he brilliantly sums it up. BTW the ex-elder that will be doing the Press Conference here in Seattle, is Bruce Baker, who has served on the main Assembly Board for the Assemblys at the Tacoma Dome for many years, and you have probibly seen him give talks. He was known for giving really good talks. Anyways if you think turning a blind eye to this sort of thing, your are seriously ignorant of the facts, I can send you many links to facts. Did you bother viewing the video link I sent you of CNN last week? You think people just go on TV, and admit to being molested for fun? If you see Bill Bowens face on the interview, you can read him like a book, I thought he was almost going to cry at one point, he kept his cool, but you can tell he was really angry and sad. I've had many conversations with him in E-mail and by voice on the phone, he as never advocated taking the WTS down, he has advocated reform. He was disfellowshipped for causing devisions, after he made every effort possible to try to reach someone with any sense at the HQ, finally having to go public with his information, because it bothered his concience that no one was doing anything about it internally. And since noone there is listening, he had no choice but to go public, because that is the only way you can put preassure on an organisation like this, to change, these kinds of things have happened in the past all the way to luther, and protistant heritage where the WTS came from. The only time real change happens, is when you embarass the people in power into making changes. Dad I suggest you pick up a book on cult de-programming, you will see a big paralell with the fear based religion that is the JW's, and any other fear based religion, like the moonies. Or get a book on mind control techniques practiced by governments in the 50's, you will also see big paralells.
Brothers Reply to my Dad:
Actually, I would be inclined to agree with you on this point if it
weren't for the fact that the evidence seems to be much more than just
here-say. There are substantial numbers of witnesses coming forth not
only disfellowshiped ones but those who worked in the legal department
at bethel dealing with these cases. Several of these cases have been
recognized by the courts as having been proven and major legal action is
being taken against the society on a number of fronts. At first I
thought is was just a bunch of hear-say but after considering much of
the evidence it seems to have a lot more concrete footing in solid
evidence and testimony from scores of witnesses. It's hard to ignore
that. If it were only a few people who just seemed bent on slandering
the witnesses I would just brush that aside. Unfortunately it seems to
be much more substantial than that. In particular that seems one of the
reasons the media has clomped on to this so forcefully. I think the
society really needs to step back on this one and say, "we were wrong"
and correct the error. It keeps making them look worse and worse to
deny it in the face of such strong evidence.
Dad's Response :P
Yes, but once again, it is not our fight. At some point, these brothers will
have to make a defense of their actions before Christ, as will we all!
Brothers response to him:
I disaggree that it is not "our fight". While I wouldn't use the word
"fight" I would use the word "defense". If you were standing in a room
watching another brother molest a child would you step in and tell him
to stop and defend the child or would you say, "Jehovah will take care
of it. I can just stand back and wait?" It sounds like a dumb question
doesn't it. That's how dumb the answer of standing back and doing
nothing sounds. What is the difference if the abuse is happening at
this moment or happened in the past or will happen in the future if we
don't stop it. Either way, if there is substantial solid evidence that
abuse is happening and certain policies have allowed for some abusers to
work the system and continue to do so, we are obligated to at least
speak out against those who are committing injustices and refuse to
change such endangering policies... Especially those who are carrying
Jehovah's name.
We are followers of Christ are we not? Remember how Jesus reacted to the
money changers in the temple? He was furious at those who were using
the Temple dedicated to Jehovah as a money making scheme charging people
outrageous prices. Tell me this, which would cause Jesus to be more
furious the money changers or the allowance of the abuse of children?
Again, are we not told to "become imitators of Christ"? I KNOW that
Jesus wants all of his servants to have the same zeal and Jealousness
for Jehovah's name that he had.
Could you imagine if that was your son or daughter? Are we not all
supposed to be one family in love through Christ? I agree that if
something is just hear-say we should be careful to avoid making it
bigger than it is. However, at the point that something becomes much
stronger than hear-say we run into a very uncomfortable decision making
point in our lives. Do we do what's more comfortable for ourselves, or
do we sacrifice our own comfort to support principles of justice and
righteousness? I do not advocate the "overthrow" of the Society, nor do
I advocate leaving the Society. I do not agree with those who look for
any small excuse to smear the good name of most JW's. However, what I
do advocate is that the society change policies that allow for Sexual
abusers to roam freely through the congregations and put children at
risk, and I advocate "cleansing" those who are polluting the
organization. To not change such policies is to continue to smear the
name of Jehovah.
Dad's response urggg:
Asking if I would defend a child being molested in my presence is stupid and
insulting! You know I would, but that is not the case, nor is it the case
with these others! WE EACH DO ACCORDING TO OUR OWN CONSCIENCE BASED ON
PERSONAL INVOLVMENT. That is the key. All other things outside our direct
involvement become the providence of Jehovah. What is stupid? To say we have
to act because Jehovah lacks to power to do so, or to have real trust that
he has both the power and the will to right these wrongs?
That these wicket people are using religion to hide their bad acts, is
disgusting! But the Society is saying the same thing and condemning the
practice. If they are hiding wrong doing, Jehovah will reveal it, and he
will punish these wrongdoers. What is it that you want me to do. Should I
get on an airplane and go to New York and execute the governing body?
Should I take out public adds condemning the Society for complicity in
covering up crimes? That is already being done! You and Charlie keep missing
the point. When using the example of the money changers, did you miss the
point that Christ was actually there. What record do we have that he was
angry about a "reported rape" or "child molestation case"?
Don't pervert the truth that Christ wanted us to learn by trying to bring
emotional arguments about my children into the picture. The truth is, that
if my Children were molested, I would take it to the Police first (just as
those brothers and sisters should have done) and then if I had the
scriptural 2 witnesses, I would bring them under formal charges before the
congregation. If I didn't have the two witnesses, I would inform the
brothers so that the offender could be watched. If they fail to follow
through, who is at fault, me or them?
You have told me that you would take personal vengeance out on the
perpetrator for your children, but isn't that an admission that you don't
trust a righteous outcome from Christ? Although you say you trust in the
forgiveness of Christ, wouldn't it be better not to have to be forgiven in
the first place? And, is this really the law of love we are commanded to
learn? Are we not under law to strive for perfection, even if we are not
able to be perfect yet?
Why are we wasting all this energy and time on things that are beyond our
power. I have more important things in my life, that is to learn about my
responsibilities before God and Christ.
My response:
Because Dad it is not "Beyond our power" if I protect just one child, then I have accomplished something, that is one less person that will have to go through the rest of they're life being haunted by memories what happened to them, it will be one less person that is re-victimized by the society. What you fail to see, is the cold hard facts about this, it's not just the society not doing anything about it, it's the society systamatically re-victimizing these kids. By this I mean, there are many, many, many documented cases where the elders did not go to the police, suggested the child/teen keep it quite so as not to bring reproach on Jehovah's name, and even being threatened with disfellowshipping, and being disfellowshipped. It is simply wrong for any man in the society that is not a trained pyschologist to handle these kinds of cases, they simply do not have the training. Do you have any idea what a person has to go through in a Judical Commity meeting if they bring up these kinds of charges? I've read many cases, and well the people running the JC's sound like out and out perverts themselves in these cases, for the details they want to know about the molestation that takes place. How would you feel if you were a kid, and you had to go in front of some elders and give graphic details of what happened to you at the hand of a molester? To tell them that Mr. "Elder in good standing" sodomized you. You know our sister was molested, I can't believe you would not have rightous anger towards the person that did it, nobody would fault you if you did take the bastard out. I personally think rapist of any kind should be put to death, I think molestation is worse than murder, at least if your dead, you don't go on suffering for the rest of your life. The more media attention that happens the better, this will shame them into changing things, how do you know this is not what Jehovah is doing to "cleanse" the org? The WTS even talks about theocratic warfare, you can't have warfare with out warriors. Do you really think Jesus would fault anyone for standing up for what is right, in the face of resistance, this is not about bringing down the society, this is about changing it, this is about standing up for what is right, standing up for the truth in the face of opposition, not to be silent, but to proclaim what is the truth loadly for all to hear. And to protect those who can't protect themselves.
