BUSh Declares Our RIGHTs come from GOD! (page 5)

gsx1138

Francois I thought it was 72 virgins? I want those extra virgins dammit. Awesome post Xander. I'm still poking around infedels.org so I haven't gotten to everything yet. Atheists don't exactly have a great track record at running a country either. I think that the next attempt should be done by scientists.

I guess I'm looking for the balance between religion and government. That balance does not exist today in the U.S. and can be easilly seen with the Republican party. The christian coalition has its tentacles so firmly entrenched in the Republicans ass that they believe that they are on Gods side. I want them to go back to being the 'all about money' party so I can start voting for them. Needless to say I haven't voted in almost 10 years.

gsx1138

Xander

. He respected many of the teachings of Jesus but he did not think of him as anything more than a fine person

Uhhh...did you read my post?

Let me repeat what Jeffeson said about christianity:

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity

That doesn't sound like he has any respect for it, does it? Since you obviously didn't read my whole post, I'll assume you didn't follow the links either. Here is another good one from Jefferson:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Xander

If you recall the world in the time of this countries founding, you'd remember that the English king against whom the colonists rebelled was crowned by the christian church.

It would be more accurate to say, not that the founding fathers supported christianity and a 'christian nation', but instead, they distrusted it at best and opposed it whenever possible.

That isn't the impression people have today, but, then, christians are the masters of revisionist history.

Francois

Um, well. Maybe IT IS 72. It's a bunch of 'em, I know that. More than I'd want to teach each and everything they know. Gimme one good experienced one.

Now - The D of I is a "government document'? What in blue blazes does that mean? My tax refund check is a government document, but that doesn't make what's on the face of it the law of the land. Our laws are "based on" the Magna Carta and the Mayflower Compact, too. But that doesn't mean our LAWS include them. Nor are our laws based on the Declaration of Independence.

In fact, when Adams was president, he said in a letter that the United States was "in no way based on Christianity." And if anyone should know, it would be John Adams, since he was a founder.

And, just in case you're inclined to brush off Adam's comment because it was only in a letter. The famous phrase, "a wall of separation is meant to exist between the church and state," was issued by Thos. Jefferson in a letter as well.

One thing I'm DAMNED SURE OF, and that is I don't want the state to be fooling around in the establishment of religion, period, end of discussion.

WHAT IF THE RELIGION THAT THE GOVERNMENT ESTABLISHED WAS THAT OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES? And we all had to observe it, no questions allowed? How would you like that? Temporal government run by Jehovah's Witnesses would make the Dark Ages look absolutely brilliant.

TAKE OUT THE DAMNED OFFENDING PHRASE. KEEP GOVERNMENT AND RELIGION SEPARATE.

Francois

Edited by - Francois on 28 June 2002 15:10:47

Xander

EXACTLY!!

The phrase wasn't there to begin with.

The phrase was put in for a wrong reason (to appease a bunch of whiney christian fundies who feared the government was too secularized - well, DUH, that's the POINT)

People are making a big deal about a US court trying to fix the problem.

What is horrifying (and don't minimize this - this IS horrifying) is that America has grown so ignorant and intoxicated on religious rubbish that the country collectively gets worked up over restoring the pledge of allegiance to its original form but doesn't bat an eye at the thought of Congress passing a law to overrule the courts (in essence, ignoring the entire system of checks and balances that this country relies on to prevent dictatorian control from falling in the hands of a few).

IslandWoman

Xander,

There is a difference between Jesus the man and the religion of Christianity.

In 1819, Jefferson wrote to William Short saying:

"But greatest of all the reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man; outlines which it is lamentable he did not live to fill up. Epictetus and Epicurus give laws for governing ourselves, Jesus a supplement of the duties and charities we owe to others. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of the benevolent moralist, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers....) invented by ultra-Christian sects, unauthorized by a single word ever uttered by him, is a most desirable object..."

"Jefferson Writings" Library of America page 1431

In 1813, Jefferson in writing to John Adams called Jesus' teachings: "..the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."

Page 1301 of same volume.

Jefferson was not a lover of the Christian Churches but he did find the teachings of Jesus admirable and certainly that admiration engendered respect.

IW

Kenneson

Francois asks "WHAT IF THE RELIGION THAT THE GOVERNMENT ESTABLISHED WAS THAT OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES?"

Freedom from religion, not of religion.

WHAT IF THE RELIGION THAT THE GOVERNMENT ESTABLISHED WAS THAT OF ATHEISM? Russia did once. Are we headed there, too?

UNDER GOD!

Xander

Kenneson, stop and think for a minute.

Not all 'christian' governments are Nazi Germany.

Not all 'atheist' governments are the Soviet Union.

The founding fathers of this country wanted a seperation of church and state, and that is how they wrote the constitution. When the pledge of allegiance was adopted, it mirrored that hope - indeed, the very foundation of our country: FREEDOM.

Some dimwit changed the pledge 50 years ago. Ooops. Well, hey, someone else just fixed it.

Unfortunately, in order to cater to the duped, uneducated masses, those in power are trying to force that line to stay put. Do you see the problem here?

IslandWoman

Xander,

I responded to your refutation of my post, I hope you will respond to mine.

IW

plmkrzy

What is horrifying (and don't minimize this - this IS horrifying) is that America has grown so ignorant and intoxicated on religious rubbish that the country collectively gets worked up over restoring the pledge of allegiance to its original form but doesn't bat an eye at the thought of Congress passing a law to overrule the courts (in essence, ignoring the entire system of checks and balances that this country relies on to prevent dictatorian control from falling in the hands of a few).

THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY!

Geesh...

plum...of the at a loss for words class

BUSh Declares Our RIGHTs come from GOD!

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