Emiliano,
what point is it you want me to answer now?? I think I've answered all your post scripturally.
JR
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Jr
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Jr
Emiliano,
I am not sure your reading all of my post, so let me ask you this. If the Jews broke the law covenant, as follows:“ Now if you strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”
Thus Jehovah is not obligated to them for this. And if Jehovah has given the Abrahamic promise to the gentiles, now Abrahams seed, what obligation does Jah have to the natural Jews? If Jehovah views Abraham's seed as "Israelites", what business does Jehovah have with the natural Jews? I hear you about this grafting in. But, this grafting is not guaranteed. It says, " he can" do it. Not he will do it. Correct??
…(verse 23), “They also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again”. -
MDS
Emiliano:
Why do we today, call the Greek Scripture portion of the Bible, the "New Covenant," or "New Testament?"
Why?
Would you say, first century "christians," as well as modern-day ones today, are in a Covenant Relationship with God, whose mediator is Jesus Christ? - 1 Tim. 2:5,6
Romans 10:4 says:
"Christ is the end of the [Mosiac] Law..."
What does that mean? How do you explain this verse?
Also, please explain this verse?
"In his saying a NEW COVENANT he has made the former one OBSOLETE and GROWING OLD and is near to vanishing away." -- Hebrews 8:13
The Mosaic Law Covenant, was in Paul's day, totally, "obsolete," "growing old," and "near to vanishing away."
This is because "Christ," is the end of the Mosiac Law.
So, why are you holding on to the Mosiac Covenant, a Covenant that Christ has "ended?"
MDS -
James
Jr
I believe that the so called "Spiritual Israel"is made out of people of all nations, who accept Jesus as his Savior.
One of "certain criteria" you have mentioned was: called by God's Personal Name.
I do agree with the other two criteria, being monotheistic and iconoclastic. But cannot agree, that only JW satisfy the first criteria by bearing the Name.
Think about at the time of the first century. The disciples were coming out of the Jews and later on, out of the other nations. But they were all bearing one Name,by divine Providence, that is "Christians" (Acts 11:26)Moreover it is not only the acceptance of Jesus that makes one people "the Israel of God", but they must be bearing fruit, according to Jesus' words in John Chap.15.(Please read the whole Chapter)
Jesus is the true Vine.The Father is the Gardener. If someone is attached to the Vine as a branch (accepting Jesus and the Good News)he has to remain in union with Him, for the purpose of bearing fruit.And the Gardner will be glorified.
But now I ask:How can someone be in union and remain with the true Vine, Jesus, if according to the WT we don't have this true Vine as our Mediator? And we don't have any covenant with Him?
I do agree with MDS when he says, that the Great Crowd of Revelation 7:9,15 is serving God in His Temple, the NAOS, where only Israelites were allowed to worship, and because of this we can really say, they are also part of "the Israel of God".
Let us think for a moment to the words Jesus said in John 10:16:"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold;those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and THEY WILL BECOME ONE FLOCK, ONE SHEPHERD."?? (Interlinear)and:"I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep". See also 1. Thimothy 2:3-7, note "one Mediator, for all men"!
If our Lord, the fine Shepherd, has decided to do so, who are we that wish it to be different? Or do we assume, Jesus has two different Flocks? and God has two different peoples??
I really don't think so! 'cause the Bible can speak by itself...
James -
Jr
Hi James,
to address your points: The Israelites were neither called Jehovah’s Witnesses. They were “Israelites”. But, what does Daniel say with regard to this matter? A Daniel 9:19 it says, “O Lord, Listen! O Lord, forgive! O my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name. ”
It’s the same for the Christians. They were identified with that name. The name was synonymous with the Christians that had begun to follow Jesus. That is why Paul wrote, at
Acts 15:14-17, “Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name . And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name , says Jehovah, who is doing these things, known from of old.”
They were called by his name. The nations knew who Jehovah was and who his people were. A "people who are called by my name"quote:
But now I ask:How can someone be in union and remain with the true Vine, Jesus, if according to the WT we don't have this true Vine as our Mediator? And we don't have any covenant with Him?
I must say, the WT is wrong! We are in a covenant relationship with Jehovah. They don’t fully understand theirplace in this arrangement. They have presumed upon many things. As the whole nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with Jehovah, so to is the Spiritual nation. The whole spiritual nation is serving Jehovah in his temple, as MDS so explained.quote:
Let us think for a moment to the words Jesus said in John 10:16:"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold;those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and THEY WILL BECOME ONE FLOCK, ONE SHEPHERD."?? (Interlinear)and:"I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep". See also 1. Timothy 2:3-7, note "one Mediator, for all men"!
Yes, there are many more sheep. Jehovah is about to repeat the same drama that took place in the first century. That is what is referred to at Isa 49:20,21 and I quote, “yet in your own ears [Israel] the sons of your bereaved state will say, ‘this place has become too cramped for me. Do make room for me , that I may dwell.’ And you will for certain say in your heart, ‘Who has become father to these for me, since I am a woman bereaved of children and sterile, gone into exile and taken prisoner?” As for these, who has brought [them] up? Look! I myself had been left behind alone. These – where have they been?”
Yes, there are many, many, many more sheep to come.
JR
Edited by - Jr on 11 March 2001 12:35:31 -
Emiliano
jr
You are once more trying to say something other than what I,ve brought up in conversation!
You are questioning me as if I brought up the Mosaic Law as something that hadn't applied to N. Israel. This is nothing but a smoke screen.
It clearly did apply, and that is why I said previously that we are all informed that N. Israel is not in the kingdom at this time.
The old Covenant is called such because they were written to N.Israel by God with His finger.... now listen to this very carefully and open your ears very wide ... "ON STONE"!! Again, ON STONE!
This represents the heart of Natural Israel. Jehovah said in
Ezequiel 36:26 I will give YOU,... (the same N. Israel He Has been Identifying and talking about to all along, If you try to insert spiritual Israel here it doesent make sense. They didnt have a heart of stone or were removed from any land that they may recive a new heart and be brought back to their OWN LAND)... continuing verse 26 says: a NEW heart and put a new spirit within YOU, and I will remove the heart of Stone from YOUR flesh and give YOU a heart of flesh.
Verse28: And YOU will live in the land that I gave to YOUR forefathers
1. Where in Ezeq. does it say that Spiritual Israel had a heart of stone and lost the land given to their forefathers?
2. Where do you see in Ezeq. a) that Spiritual Israel was in that Land b)were scattered,c) profaned Jehovahs name while they went to the nations,d) in what previous time, that they may return, be "regrafted" to it?(you obviously dont get the RE in the word grafted concept) Yeah, Yeah, I know, that's what the Bible says but the Watcthower says it means something ealse. Your body may be out, but they still have your mind!
The New Covenant is no longer the The Mosaic law, written in stone
It is the Law of CHRIST written in your hearts. (not stone!, the stone heart will be softened)
The New Heart of flesh is the one that will allow natural Israel to believe in Christ!Thus not being exculded from Gods Undeserved Kindness. Do You think N. Israel desreves it? Do YOU deserve it? This is what the New Covenant is about! God's Grace peoples hearts
Undeserved kindness is deserved by no one.Not natural Israel,not the gentiles,not Jehovhas witnesses not ANYBODY! We are all in need of MERCY. The old Mosaic law was used to show that! The Solution is Christ! He stops the condemnation of the Law in all those that belive in HIM.
And as I see in you and you see in Natural Israel, some are more stubborn than others. But thats OK, not to worry, God can do ANYTHING! It just takes a little longer with some than with others
If and Then:
If they did not obey, they were removed!
When their heart are softened THEN they will obey!
That is your IF and Then answer!
Thats Where God says HE WILL.
Otherwise it is no longer God Who gets the credit for doing it!
It will be weak, stubborn, sinfull man who did it!
Dont You Get it no man will do it! GOD WILL DO IT!
You are argueing with Jehovah, these are His words not mine.
Every time he says I Will, I Will, I Will. HE WILL.
Answer those simple questions! Again they are numbered, aswer accordingly! You've been trained very well on answering to: "1 part a)"
Then go back and try that with the rest of the post you havent responded to! -
James
To Emiliano
I can understand your objections. I have also met people, who still believe those Scriptures of Romans chap. 11 as you do. I think, my experience could help you.Because the main problem is as follows:
A good friend of mine, who is a Bible scholar, gave me this answer:"I think it is a sound principle that in reading of the Scriptures we need to seek always to keep the WHOLE picture, the overall message, in view, not isolating one part from the other,or focusing on a few selected textes. The reason for the wide variety of interpretation of various points that can be found undoubtedley has a relation to the tendency to focus on one part of Scripture rather than looking at it AS A WHOLE."
To this forum discussion: "I have a serious problem with the view that would make a distinction within the body of Christ, with those who are his joint heirs, and base God's dealings with some on the basis of their being fleshly Jews, in effect, granting them a specialness of "inheritance" that differs from the inheritance of other members of the body of Christ."
Consider please Romans 11:1,2.38,39, that " a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly...Rather, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of tha heart," also in Romans 9:6-8, that "Not all Israelites truly belong to ISRAEL, and not all of Abraham's children are his true descendants; but'it is through Isaac that descendants shall be named for you'.This means that it is NOT the children of the flesh who are the CHILDREN OF GOD, but the children of the promise are COUNTED AS DESCENDANTS."(Compare Galatians 3:28,29; 4:28)
That's why the expression "all Israel" of Romans 11:16 can then refer to ALL members of the people of God WHO ARE SAVED IN CHRIST, again irrespective of race or fleshly descent.
I shall conclude with this Scripture:
"For in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. As many of you were baptized into Christ have clothed ourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer male or female, for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And IF YOU BELONG TO CHRIST, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S OFFSPRING, HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE." Galatians 3:26-29
Best wishes
James -
Jr
Emiliano,
I'm sorry Emiliano. I don't see any, any, any scriptural support for your argument. None. All I see is a man that wants to believe the Jews will recieve something that's not supported by the scriptures. The reason you see these things is because you don't understand any of the deep, sacred things of God. The bible is not a novel so that anyone can read it and understand it. Much of it has to be revealed. Has Jehovah revealed these things to you? I don't think so. There's no support. Sorry. Unless you have scriptural support, I mean scriptures, don't waste your energy.
JR -
Jr
Emiliano,
I'm sorry Emiliano. I don't see any, any, any scriptural support for your argument. None. All I see is a man that wants to believe the Jews will recieve something that's not supported by the scriptures. The reason you see these things is because you don't understand any of the deep, sacred things of God. The bible is not a novel so that anyone can read it and understand it. Much of it has to be revealed. Has Jehovah revealed these things to you? I don't think so. There's no support. Sorry. Unless you have scriptural support, I mean scriptures, don't waste your energy.
JR -
Jr
James,
did my post make any since to you? Was it scripturally sound in your opinion?
JR