Hi,
The expression,“The Israel of God”, found only once in Scripture, refers to spiritual Israel rather than to racial descendants of Jacob. The bible speaks of “Israel in a fleshly way” as well as spiritual Israel made up of those for whom descent from Abraham is not a requirement. Matt. 3:9 says, “do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham’. For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.” When the apostle Paul used the expression “the Israel of God”, he showed that it had nothing to do with being a descendant of Abraham. Gal. 6:15,16 says, “ For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.”
The prophet Hosea also foretold that God, in rejecting the nation of natural Israel in favor of this spiritual nation, which includes Gentiles, would say “to those not my people: ‘You are my people’” (Ho. 2:23) That is why Jesus said, “This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matt.21:43) Even though the words, ‘spiritual Israel’ is not used, it refers to a spiritual nation instead of fleshly, not tied by blood relation. This is the “Israel of God”. So, when we see the terms Israel or Jews, in prophecy that has not been fulfilled, we know it refers to this Israel, not fleshly Israel. They have been abandoned.
JR
Edited by - Jr on 4 March 2001 22:40:15
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Jr
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larc
Jr,
It seems to me that the scriptures you have quoted, indicate that the new religion of Christianity was being opened to the Gentiles, and was not restricted to the race of Jews, that comprised Jesus' intitial followers. As you well know, this was a new idea to his followers, since Gentiles were not originaly accepted. This does not prove that one organization within Chritianity would take on the special role of "Spiritual Israel", nor does it prove that any organized body would gain such recognition or that any organization as such would fit these scriptures. If there is such a claim, I think the Catholic Church would have more right to it than the Jehovah's Witnesses. -
Emiliano
Jr:
Paul is making a point that there are two types of people those people who are of the flesh and those who are of the spirit.(Romans 8)
The Israelites who are of the flesh are not of God. Those who are Israelites of the spirit are of God. But They are still Israelites.
I am Mexican and I am spiritual so Im a spiritual Mexican I will never be a spiritual Israelite. My citizenship is a heavenly one,My King is Jesus Christ my Lord. He is the King of Israel and I am in his Kingdom. All believers through faith are sons of God Descecents of Abraham who was not a Jew. There is no Jew or Greek, we are all one body of Christian believers in a spiritual Government.(led by the spirit)
Romans 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? (What does the Bilble Say?) May it never be!
Romans ll:25 For I do not want you, bretheren,to be uninformed of this mystery,lest you be wise in yoour own estimation,that a partial hardening has happened to Israel Until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED just as it is written, " The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob."27 And This is my Covenant with them When I Take Away Their Sins.
...29 for the gifts and the calling of God are Irrevocable.30 For just as you once were disobedient to God but now have been shown mercy because of thier disobedience,so these also now hve been disobedient, in oreder that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and unfathomable His ways!
Even though Israel has been unfaithful God is always faithful to his promises.
Emiliano -
Jr
Larc & Coolbreeze,
In my last comment I was not trying prove JWs to be Israel. You both said you didn’t see any proof of there being a “spiritual Israel”. That’s what I was showing. If you need reasonable proof that JWs are Israel, go to my first post.
Coolbreeze:quote:
Did a bit of quick reaserch, and still can't find anything about "SPIRITUAL" israel.
Larc:quote:
None of the scriputures you quote say that there is a spiritual Israel. That is your fallible, human, imperfect conclusion and theory building which creats a tenuous philosphy of man.
Emiliano,
Do you believe in Jehovah as the only true God? -
MDS
IDENTIFYING "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" IN OUR MODERN TIMES
Jehovah's Witnesses themselves, over the years, have had a hard time identifying the true nature of "Spiritual Israel," Its true identity. Sure, they know that the first century christians, were consider "Israel" of their time. This they know.
But, today as they explain it, they say that only the 144,000 are to be considered the real, "Spiritual Israel" of our time. And the "Great Crowd" have no such direct, intimate, standing with God, as "Spiritual Israelites," even as we see this point is greatly contested upon this Discussion Board.
The Governing Body, then too, in their saying this, thus claim that the "Great Crowd" of Jehovah's Witnesses, supposedly assembled since 1935, according to them, do not even have a "mediator" in Jesus Christ at all. No, "mediator," between God and themselvses as a nation. They also claim the "Great Crowd," are not in a Covenant Relationship with Jehovah God at all, and thus, cannot claim to having a mediator, the appointed one, Jesus Christ.
But at the same time, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses claim the "Great Crowd," are Christians still, yes, Christians, bound by all of the teachings and commandments of being a Christian left by Jesus, and therefore bound by the Christian Law of Love and can even approach Jehovah God through prayer, using Jesus' Name, somehow, without Jesus actually being their "mediator." They claim the "Great Crowd," are NON-Spiritual Israelites, but can approach Jehovah, thru Jesus, without even RECOGNIZING Jesus as their personal "mediator" between God and them, as a nation.
Now, we ask how, can this be?
Actually, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses cannot explain this situation, even to this day, in a concise, precise manner. They even acknowledge there is no precendent set for this teaching in the first century among christians of that time era, since they teach only the "Anointed," the 144,000 were those that made up the first century congregation itself. With no "Great Crowd" being present in the first century congregation.
With this being the case for Jehovah's Witnesses today, identifying mysterious "Spiritual Israel" of our day and time, yes gaining its TRUE IDENTITY, becomes a GREAT MYSTERY. Today, there is much confusion on the subject, as evidenced above.
Is it true that only 144,000 have Jesus as their "mediator?" Or, are Jehovah's Witnesses, as a group, yes, the "Great Crowd," considered "Israelites," before God? which?
A key Bible Text that sheds great light upon this important question is shown in Revelation 7:9, 15. This verse has been the subject of some debate among God's Name people in recent years.
For instance, perhaps, some remember, in the early 1980s a question arose concerning this particular Bible Text and many Bible scholars at Bethel, Raymond Franz being among them, just prior to the 1980 Bethel Apostasy Situation.
After the ouster of RV Franz and other key Bethelite membership, such as Ed Dunlap, and R. Lentatt (who voluntarily left Bethel after having compiled together the Aid Book with the former two brothers), Sanchez, and other key Bethel Staff in, 8 members in all, the Watchtower Society decided to "address" the scriptural concerns cited by these Bible Scholars, now declared "apostates."
There were a number of issues to be addressed. One of them, had to do with the "Great Crowd" of Revelation 7:9, 15 being found in the "Temple," or Greek "Naos," area.
An article was written by the WTS entitled "The Great Crowd Renders Sacred Service Where?", a study article, published in the August 15, 1980 Watchtower Magazine, pages 14-20. The purpose of this article was to subdue the idea that the "Great Crowd" could be scripturally said to be serving God, in his "temple," [Naos] IN HEAVEN. Are they seen, in heaven, serving God, in the "Temple." This was the point of the article. But it still did not address the fact of why "Gentiles," were found there, in the "Naos," in the first place. A place where only Jews were permitted to worship.
We remember, the "Naos," "temple" area, is the area where ONLY ISRAEL worships. So, since ONLY ISRAELITES, could worship there in that particularly area per say, how do we explain a "Great Crowd" of various ethnic backgrounds, languages, and cultures, being present there, worshiping God, "Day and night", God's "Temple," or "Naos?" That is the question.
Yes, A "Great Crowd," from "ALL NATIONS, TRIBES, PEOPLES and TONGUES" worshiping God there, in His "Naos," or Temple. The place where ONLY Jews, worshiped God. How could this be? -- Revelation 7:9, 15
Why were these "nations, tribes, peoples and tongues," people from every ethnic background, culture, and language group permitted to be there? Why did God permit them to "worship" Him from the "Naos," temple area? Where only Israel was permitted to worship.
MAIN POINT: Could it be, the "Great Crowd" are seen in God's eyes, as being "Israelites," spiritual Israelites to Jehovah God?
If they were considered "Gentiles," then they would worship God, from BEHIND the "wall," that divided the Holy area, from the "Court of the Gentiles," which was considered outside the Sanctuary area. They would be in the place that "Gentiles" were normally relegated. The Greek word "Heron," then would have been employed in Revelation 7:15, since, it describes the "entire precinct area of the temple." And, with that being the case, now we can see this including the area where the "Gentiles" worshiped, the "Court of the Gentiles." But this is not the Greek word John uses in Revelation 7:15.
No but He uses "Naos." Yes, these "nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues," are seen, clearly, in the INNER SANCTUARY AREA, the "Naos," as it were. Why? Is it because they, to God, Jehovah they are SPIRITUAL JEWS, SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES?
Could this be the case?
If this is the case, consistent with the Greek language employed by John under inspiration, they we safely say, the "Great Crowd," regardless of the ethnic origin, culture and background, are ALL CONSIDERED "SPIRITUAL JEWS," in God's sight...all of the "Great Crowd," are "Jews," to Jehovah...they are Spiritual Israel, modern-day Israel to Jehovah God, serving him in His "temple," or "Naos."
And since the "Great Crowd," are said to have come thru a "Great Tribulation," a great time of trouble, then, it is easy to identify who they really are, ... the ones who come through "Great Tribulation," the "trampling period," the "Gentile times," ... they are diversified group, an international religious group, ... they are Jehovah's Witnesses, themselves, as a nation.
MDS -
Jr
Execellent!! MDS Excellent!!
JR -
Emiliano
Jr and MDS
According to the WT this great crowd cant be born of the spirit. So by their defenition This Spiritual Israel cant Be of the great crowd. Being a Jehovah's "Watchtower" Witness itself make you a spiritual Jew.
You must be born of the spirit this is only done by being in Christ. Not by being in the Watchtower.
Remember that the Natural Israel is not discarded forever this is only a temporary condition "UNTIL" all the gentiles have come in. Then all of Israel shall be saved .
So all believer will be grafted in the true Vine Jesus.We wont be grafted in the Watchtower.
Those grafted are the nation of Israel, the natural branches and the wild ones too, the gentiles. All believers will be one body with Christ as our head. This is the Spritual Israel, no confusion at all. No mystery, Paul already explained it. No Greek no Jew we are all One in Christ. CHRISTIANS
Emiliano -
Emiliano
JR, MDS
God has not turned his back on Israel for ever. There shall be an end to this. This will be "until" all the gentiles have come in.
The natural branch the nation of Israel will be regrafted into the tree and so will the wild branches. This will be done because they are born of the spirit and are now toghther one body, with Jesus being our head. This body is the Israel of God. There is no confusion
Paul cleared it up 2000 years ago by letting us in on the explanation to that mystery.
Yes I Belive in Jehovah being the only true God -
Emiliano
Sorry if I repeted myself. I seemed to be disconnected from the web and didn't realize my first posting had gone through.
God Bless!
Emiliano -
Jr
Emiliano,
So, you believe the natural Jews will be restored to God's favor, even though they don't except his son as King? And you also believe the gentiles will be grafted into the natural nation of Jews? This will become the 'Spiritual nation of Israel'? Is this correct?
JR