Just read Galatians chapter 3 for a definition of "Spiritual Israel."
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Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
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wakeupcall
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Jr
Emiliano,
You are so mind stuck on the WT; nobody said anything about the WT this whole discussion, but you. We know the deal!! We understand the situation more than you can imagine. You can't teach us anything, believe me. We have patiently discussed the bible with you, while you've continued to insult us and any affiliation we've had with the Wt. But we have not attacked you personally. We have been interested in a reasonable discussion on a very pertinent subject. But we still don't see any sound scriptural support for your argument.
If you understood the WT so much, you would see that we don't believe everything the WT teaches. We are not stuck on them. We know the deal. But, we do see them as God's people. The WT has never been authorized to prophecy. They presumptiously took this upon themselves. They do not have this authority , which parallels with the Pharisees of Jesus day. They only serve as custodians.
JR
Edited by - Jr on 9 March 2001 18:4:31 -
Emiliano
These are only observations.
You may no longer be a JW but that doesnt mean you havent been affected by it.
You still havent responded to the post!
Indicate what part or parts of this argument aren't scripturally sound? -
Jr
Emiliano,
Your whole argument is based on the simple observation that whenever we see Israel in the bible, it's talking about natural Israel. This is a shallow assumption. If this is so, the bible has no mystery to it. There would be no need for interpretation. In other words, people of the nations, that don't know or care about Jehovah, would understand prophecy. Jehovah would have no room to do his personal business. Satan attempted to limit Jehovahs hand. That's what Satan attempted with Adam and Eve. Satan knew Jehovah would either kill them or let them live. Either way Satan saw Jehovahs defeat. Jehovah said he would kill them, but Satan thought he had created a "checkmate" situation. Satan did not realize Jehovah's power or wisdom. He didn't think Jehovah would accept sinful humans as servants. He didn't see his ability to foresee the future and work events out over time. Satan didn't think Jehovah could accept this. But he did! And he worked with it to provide the means for their redemption. Jehovah's patience and wisdom out maneuvered Satan. Jehovah won't allow himself to be limited to a simple promise made to sinful humans. He can't. He won't. Where he will keep his promise, he will not be limited. He'll make a way out for himself, in order to be the victor and not be forced to accept disloyalty. Can't you imagine the bad taste in his mouth if he had to accept natural Israel back, only because he promised it. That is why he says, "For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.” He will not be limited. His wisdom and creativity give him the ability to make other options. "For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.” So many scriptures show us this is what has happened.
"He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal. 3:14
"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:29
It's Scriptures like this that makes the promise secondary. He will keep it. But not the way you might think.
JR -
mommy
This kinda reminds me of a song, I can't remember the author but it goes kinda like this...
The walls came tumbling down:) Or maybe it was Humpty dumpty that fell off the wall...Still the same You bjc and jr and mds and yes even you Logical....the walls came tumbling DOWN!
So how sound is your proof?
wendy(the ever ready battery) -
Emiliano
Jr
Jehovah made the promise to Abraham. This promise was a unilateral covenant that Jehovah made with Abraham. In other words there was only one side that agreed to do something.
There was no condition imposed on Abraham.
You are right no one can thwart Jehovahs plans, in this case he is using the temporary removal of the Natural Israelites so that the wild branches may come in. After the the fullness of the gentiles come in natural Israel will be re-grafted. I've answered your Galatians 3 questions in the post you are avoiding.
Ive already answered this same question. Its in the post which you
keep avoiding. What are your explanations to that post? I would like to know, I numbered the points so you can respond accordingly.
It appears you that you cant. -
Jr
Emilliano,
Romans 11:1,2, “God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized. Why, do you not know what the scripture says in connection with Elijah, as he pleads with God against Israel?...(verse 14) , “if I may by any means incite my on flesh to jealousy and save some from among them”.
Now if you look at the cross reference of verse 2(e), you will see it points to 1 Kings 19:10. There it clearly explains the context. Please listen. And I quote, "To this he said: "I have been absolutely jealous for Jehovah the God of armies; for the sons of Israel have left your covenant, your altars they have torn down, and your prophets they have killed with the sword..." This clearly qualifies Paul’s statement. No, Jehovah did not reject his people, they rejected him! No, Jehovah did not go back on his promise, they did. So, you can't use this to show Jehovah will not disown this people. It is clearly speaking about the covenant through the law, not Abrahams covenant. They broke this covenant. Paul is explaining it himself. “save some from among them”. Is that so difficult to see?
…(verse 23), “They also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again”.
Yes, God is able to graft them back in. And God would have loved to do so. He would have loved to have as many natural Jews repent and be apart of the tree as possible. But, like Jesus said at Matt 23:37,38, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her, -how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look, Your house is abandoned to you." So, Jehovah will accept them now only on an individual basis. They are now in the same situation the nations are in. Who ever wants to serve God, can. They will be grafted in. Okay? But, as a nation, they have lost the privilege of being exclusively used by Jehovah for this purpose.
…(verse 26) , “and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliver will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob.” Yes, the deliver will come out of Zion, the “new Zion”. The new “Israel”, is being spoken of here. The one Jehovah considers “Israel”.
"He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal. 3:14
Answer #1
Next: Ezekiel 36 - replacing Israel with “Spiritual Israel” sounds good to me. Like I said, it can apply to who ever Jehovah wants it to. It's his called. And the way the scripture indicate, it's Spiritual Israel.
JR -
Jr
In conjunction with my post right before this one:
You said,quote:
"Jehovah made the promise to Abraham. This promise was a unilateral covenant that Jehovah made with Abraham. In other words there was only one side that agreed to do something.
There was no condition imposed on Abraham."
And you are correct! But, you forget, there are two covenants involved here. TWO!! One to Abraham, the unilateral covenanat. Unconditional!! correct! And I quote, ", “To your seed I am going to give this land” (Gen. 12:7) Later Jehovah extended it as follows, “that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld you son, your only one, I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seedlike the stars of the heavens and like the grains of the sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.” (Gen. 22:16-18) This involved an inheritance to his seed or seeds. Capeesh?? :) Unconditional!!! But, please listen very carefully. "He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal. 3:14
"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:29
Can you hear that????? Abrahams promise goes to the gentiles, his seed. Is that difficult to understand??
Now #2: the covenant through the Law. “ Now if you strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Exodus 19:5,6) Need I say more... Yep, IF THEN. Ummmmm!!!
JR
Edited by - Jr on 10 March 2001 11:18:15 -
MDS
Hi "JR" and "Logical:"
If we examine Luke 19th chapter, we notice something very unique, as it pertains to our present discussion above.
Luke 19:11, 12 sets the stage for us by saying:
"While they were listening to these he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly. Therefore he said: A certain man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return."
The disciples were interested in the "SECOND COMING" of the Messiah. Jesus gives them an illustration, a setting where they can make the all important connection as to WHEN the Kingdom of God, in the hands of Jesus, is coming in all power and Glory,...thus the SECOND "parousia," or coming of Jesus.
Now, when does this occur?
Luke 19:13-27 provides the answer.
Let's notice verses 14 and 27 of the 19th chapter of Luke. This will tell us EXACTLY WHEN, Jesus returns in "kingdom power," to set matters straight regarding (a) Mosiac Law Covenant, God concluding ACT toward natural "Israel," and (b) to gather his own disciples to return to heaven with him. Just as they asked Jesus at Matthew 24:3:
"Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and the conclusion of the system of things."
The disciples had just been told by Jesus that by "no means will a stone be left upon a stone and not thrown down," of this magnificent temple structure in Jerusalem. (Matthew 24:1,2)
Also, in Luke 21:23 Jesus said of Jerusalem and of its people, natural Israel,
"...For there will be GREAT ...WRATH on this people [natural Israel}..."
Great Wrath was because of rejecting Jesus as king, and complete violation of the Mosiac Law, since God was to have the final say as to who was to becom "king" over "Israel." God has final say on this. God's Chosen One, was rejected by the nation as the "final straw," of disobedience against God. So, now, "Wrath," must come, God's Wrath.
Well, how was this "great wrath" expressed upon this holy city, Jerusalem and its temple? How?
Let's look at what Jesus said again, at Luke 19:14 and 27. I will quote it.
"...but his citizens hated him [Jesus] and sent out a body of ambassadors after him, to say, We do not want this man to become King over us."
Who are these people? ... they are the Natural Nation of "Israel."
They, as a nation, "Hated," Jesus. They did not "want him to become king" over them. But, Jesus was God's Chosen One, God's choice.
And further Jesus says of this disobedient people, Natural Israel,
"Moreover, these enemies of mine that did not want me to become king over them BRING here and SLAUGHTER them before me."
Jesus said, that "Natural Israel," was "HIS ENEMIES"...the people who "did not want him to be king," the ones that rejected God's Kingdom, ... yes, Jesus said of them...they must be "SLAUGHTERED BEFORE HIM."
So, it was JESUS, that "SLAUGHTED" Natural Israel...Jesus.
And when did Jesus do this?
Hence, at Passover of 70 C.E. When the Roman Armies, "slaughtered" 1.1 million Jews in 70 C.E. under General Titus...God's Will was accomplished upon God's "enemies,"... the Natural Nation of Israel.
...but Jesus actually himself, had them "slaughtered," for complete disobedience as a nation. Jesus "Slaughtered" the Natural Nation of Israel...Jesus.
As Jesus promised his disciples, he would return and "receive them home to his self," in heaven. This he did at the same time of this "GREAT WRATH," .. at the same time of this "GREAT SLAUGHTERING," upon his "ENEMIES." At that time, 70 c.e.
Again, Jesus gave the disciples the "event" they should look for, in determing when he would "return," at his SECOND "parousia," or SECOND coming to Jerusalem. -- Matt. 24:1-3
He returned in 70 c.e., exactly when he "slaughtered," the "citizens that hated him" and "did not want him to become king."
Jesus was rejected by the natural nation of "Israel." So, rightfully, Jesus, personally, had them "slaughtered before him."
... the same nation that said to Pilate..."we have no king but CAESAR..." They preferred "CAESAR," Satan's choice to rule, rather than the righteous man, Jesus.
This is why Jesus pointed said of Natural "Israel," and their finale,
"EVERYONE falling upon that stone [Jesus] will be SHATTERED. As for anyone upon whom it falls, IT WILL PULVERIZE HIM." -- Luke 20:18
The natural nation of "Israel," reject Jesus as King...actually "hated" Jesus, and clearly did not want him to begin King over them in perferring "CAESAR" as King over them, rather than Jesus... a complete rejection of the Mosiac Law Covenant, and God's right to choose...to choose who should be "king" over Israel.
Therefore, and properly so, Jehovah God, and Jesus took direct action against the violators of the Mosiac Law Covenant, by having them, "slaughtered before them," yes by "PULVERIZING" these wicked people. Yes, Jesus even "PULVERIZED" this nation, yes Jesus, that "stone," in 70 C.E. Also, at this same time, at the complete destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus also gathers those who are "heaven-bound," gathered them, his faithful disciples, but "abandoned," those who were not worthy as christians followers of his...all in that same year, 70 c.e. -- Matthew 24:40, 41
Luke 19:14 and 27 helps us greatly in this matter to determine the actual time of this most important event in Bible history, as mentioned by Jesus at Matthew 24:1-3.
MDS -
Emiliano
Jehovahs people are all "Christians" because they belive in Christ.
You are still not Addressing the Issuses and points in the post.
Repeating the same argument which Ive already answered
The generation ...
Yes Can hear that! And I can respond and have responded you are the one who isnt listening! And havent responded!
I can hear that; the promise goes to the gentiles. Cant you hear or understand as The Bible explains that this is what was meant about the wild brances being Grafted in? natural Israel their enemies, will not be excluded because they will be re-grafted in?
Jehovah will show mercy to all who come to Christ not to all who become "Jehovah's Witnesses" or you would be excluded if you leaft.
When natural Israels heart is softened they will have faith in Christ too!
That is you if an then response!
You have ears and eyes!
Dont keep covering them.
Yes you need to say more.
Read the post and respond To the points.
MDS Same applies to you!
CAPEESH?