Representative John Lewis saw the disparity in Law vs Human Rights at the pivotal Selma Alabama march in 1965.
Michael Brown verdict discussion policy
by Simon 254 Replies latest forum announcements
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Simon
Representative John Lewis saw the disparity in Law vs Human Rights at the pivotal Selma Alabama march in 1965.
That disparity was resolved by changing the law but some of the rights obtained such as the right to vote seem to now be ignored.
Of any "right" it would seem to me to be the most important: once you can contribute to the selection of your representative then you can change anything else.
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DesirousOfChange
The problem is that if there is no idictment the evidence will be sealed and the debate will never end.
If he is indicted, then the prosecution must prove he is truly guilty. The Grand Jury only determines if there is enough cause to take it to a trial and jury.
Doc
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Simon
The problem is that if there is no idictment the evidence will be sealed and the debate will never end.
The release of evidence will not have any effect on whether the debate continues or not but that says more about the attitudes of 'the mob' and whether they are actually after justice or revenge. They have already said that they intend to release the evidence which I think is a mistake.
You don't need to see all the evidence to respect the legal process and the investigation and consideration of all the forensic evidence and witness testimony. The same people who fail to respect the rule of law and the jury result are the ones that will be a threat to the witnesses which makers their complaints self-perpetuating: when their names are redacted they will no doubt claim that proves there is a cover up or it's been invented.
They have already decide what verdict they want regardless of what the evidence shows actually happened. No amount of facts and proof will change that if the decision doesn't go their way.
As well as the risk to witnesses (which undermines the whole system of justice) there are also police officers wives and children who have been threatened and are living in fear. It's hard to believe that the people making those threats really care a hoot about justice.
This is where the likes of Obama and community leaders do society a grave disservice by promoting the idea that they need an indictment to get justice. The reality is that no indictment may be perfect justice but they are promoting and inciting unrest if their expectations are not fulfilled.
If he is indicted, then the prosecution must prove he is truly guilty. The Grand Jury only determines if there is enough cause to take it to a trial and jury.
Correct. This stage is to determine whether a full trial would simply be a waste of time. The prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt so if there is already a massive amount of doubt or very clear evidence counter to the charge some would like to persue then going to trial would be a waste of time.
We cannot succumb to mob in the street to make decisions. If that happens then I see a bleak future indeed.
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sammielee24
Apparently the justice department already said from the beginning that once the verdict has been decided, all the evidence that they had would be made public. That hasn't changed as far as I know.
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Jennings closes schools next week in expectation of grand jury decision
November 21, 2014 3:45 pm • post-dispatch.com
The region scrambled Friday to prepare for what many assume is an imminent grand jury decision in the shooting death of Michael Brown.
UPDATED to include school still planned for Ferguson-Florissant, Riverview Gardens and Hazelwood schools, and information on the fliers adults were handing out to students.
The Jennings School District will not hold school Monday and Tuesday in expectation that a grand jury will announce its decision this weekend on whether to indict officer Darren Wilson.
Parents in the Jennings district, which includes the eastern edge of Ferguson, will receive automated calls this afternoon notifying them that schools will be closed, Superintendent Tiffany Anderson said.
"With the heightened anxiety and activity, we thought it would be better for students and staff to extend the holiday at this point," she said.
The decision to close schools was not based on any notification from law enforcement that an announcement is imminent, Anderson went on to say. Once the decision becomes public, many are bracing for the possibility of volatile protests, which have been largely peaceful since Wilson fatally shot Michael Brown three months ago.
School officials aren't concerned about student safety inside the buildings, but on streets near some of them. Anderson wanted to give parents as much time as possible to figure out child-care arrangements for next week.
School district representatives from several north St. Louis County districts said closing school for two days was among the options discussed at a recent meeting with law enforcement officials. Closure would keep buses and excess traffic off streets in the event of unrest.
Children in Jennings don't have bus service. Most of them walk, making Anderson even more concerned for their safety.
On Thursday, Anderson said a group of adults wearing masks and claiming to be from Chicago were passing out fliers to students as they walked home along Cozens Avenue. The street has an elementary school, the junior high and high school.
The fliers were "encouraging students to be disruptive and encouraging them to think of police as pigs," Anderson said. "That was disturbing."
Anderson notified other school districts in north St. Louis County about the fliers. A scanned copy urges people "to pour into the streets immediately" after the announcement comes. It also says "Students should walk out of school when they hear another murdering pig has gone free."
Jennings is the first of what could be several school districts to cancel school, giving students and staff a week-long Thanksgiving break. Children who live in Ferguson and attend public school go to one of four districts — Jennings, Hazelwood, Riverview Gardens, or Ferguson-Florissant.
"At the present time, we have not made a similar decision," said Jana Shortt, spokeswoman for Ferguson-Florissant schools. "The problem right now is, we don't even know an announcement is coming."
Riverview Gardens and Hazelwood schools still plan to be in session on Monday, district representatives said.
The uncertainty of when the announcement will finally be announced has increased anxieties among children throughout the region, but particularly in schools those nearest the unrest.
"For adults, there's as great — if not greater — anxiety," Anderson said. "They're thinking a lot about how to support kids, how to make sure everything is in place" for the grand jury decision.
Even with no school, meals will be provided to children in need on Monday and Tuesday from 8 to 9 a.m., and lunch from noon to 1 p.m. at Jennings High School and Fairview Elementary School.
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AlphaMan
On Thursday, Anderson said a group of adults wearing masks and claiming to be from Chicago were passing out fliers to students as they walked home along Cozens Avenue. The street has an elementary school, the junior high and high school.
The fliers were "encouraging students to be disruptive and encouraging them to think of police as pigs," Anderson said. "That was disturbing."
Anderson notified other school districts in north St. Louis County about the fliers. A scanned copy urges people "to pour into the streets immediately" after the announcement comes. It also says "Students should walk out of school when they hear another murdering pig has gone free."
From Chicago heh? Probably Obama's racist buddies.
These anarchists are foaming at the mouth to riot, loot & burn in St. Louis and other American cities. Officer Wilson will not be indicted, because he was attacked first by a big thug going after his gun. This whole case just shows these protesters to be the racists animals they are. A decorated white police officer with no trouble in his police background is called into their neighborhood to respond to a sick child needing help, then he has to kill a huge black thug who just strong arm robbed a store, who sucker punched him and went after his gun because he knew or thought the white officer ID'd him.
Then these racists spin it into a white racist cop out looking for trouble executes a good black boy gentle giant who merely had his hands up trying to surrender. Hands Up, Don't Shoot.....my ass!
This will turn very ugly when Officer Wilson is not indicted. The black leaders have no intention of backing down on their made up story and their agenda. The equally racists Obama & Holder have backed this bullshit up right from the beginning.
I hope the Govenor of Missouri is prepared to handle any violent protesters, looters & vandals. If these people are allowed to riot, loot & burn like they did before, then this will be standard Operating Procedure throughout the U.S. anytime the black community feels like taking the law & justice into their own hands.
You watch how many innocent white people are killed by these black racists. I hope the authorities cool their asses of with water cannons with pepper extact in it. Once they start freezing their asses off, maybe they'll go home and forget all this trumped up nonsense. Then they can go back to work on Monday like all other Americans. (yeah right)
This is going to be bad. I remember the Rodney King rioting on TV and the innocent white truck driver who was pulled out of his truck, then the black thugs beat him unconscience with one spiking a brick into his head, then laughing and doing a sickening football touchdown dance. Black people are the worst racists in America, and people are getting sick of them. They make no uproar over all the black on black crimes, blacks targeting whites like the "polar bear" hunting knockout game, or any black police officers killing white people.
Maybe a miracle will happen and it will remain peaceful.
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Simon
There are some, it seems, that are looking to take advantage of the situation to cause trouble. This is nothing new.
It's a shame that some ill-conceived protests provide cover for them to do damage both to people and property. Let's hope the protesters don't object too much to the police taking action against the trouble-makers when it needs to be taken or use such action as an excuse for further complaints against the police.
Sad too is that we have people demanding justice and protesting as though they are not getting it when it's been happening as they protest. If you are generous then you could suppose they simply don't understand how the justice system works. If you are unkind then you could accuse them of trying to undermine the justice process with threats of violence hanging over people if the "wrong" decision is made.
I actually think releasing all the evidence is a mistake. If it is not the normal procedure then it shouldn't be done simply because a mob is being disruptive and demanding it. In fact it shouldn't be done precisely because a mob is demanding it! There is no reason to imagine that those who don't understand, accept or respect the process will understand, accept or respect the result by seeing the evidence that it was based on. If people retaliate against a witness or juror as a result then what happens to the process in future? The rule of law relies on trust in the systems and processes of justice and there is no evidence that there is anything wrong with those. The claims typically made are incredibly simplistic and prove nothing like what those making them seem to imagine (e.g. the suggestion that more blacks being stopped by traffic cops in a predominaently black neighbourhood is unfair).
I think people are getting fed up hearing this nonsense and it's dividing races even more and generating more bad feeling. The Milwaukee police chief perhaps struck a chord with many - where are all these protesters when black kids are being killed day-in, day-out? Why are they not all over those things like they are with the rare incidents involving the police?
http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/11/20/milwaukee-police-chief-calls-out-protesters/
I don't understand what the aims of the protestors even are. What do peope want to happen after the TV cameras are gone? It's all very well having "a cause" and protesting but you must want to accomplish something by it - what is it? Are people putting any thought into what happens next month or next year? All we hear from the leaders is soundbites and claims of unfairness but no plan, no suggestions, just vauge and unsubstantiated claims of victimisation.
It has to be concrete otherwise it can have an insidious effect on future decisions. Imagine a future where white cops don't police black neighbourhoods because it isn't worth the risk to them. Where does that leave those neighbourhoods? Are people stepping up to police their own communities like they say they want? Will it end up with less investment and more people who are able simply moving away and abandoning them?
I think many who protest are caught up in the moment and the catchy chants but don't even know the facts of the issues. There seems to be a phenomenon now where people want to "get involved" in some social situation for fear of missing out, as thought it's some experience to be had. Watch unedited interviews of people in crowds at previous protests and very often lots of people don't really have a clue why they are really even there and what they are trying to achieve.
It appears we need to wait till next week now to find out the result and how people are going to react to it. We can only hope that some common sense will prevail but we all know it's unlikely.
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AlphaMan
I actually think releasing all the evidence is a mistake. If it is not the normal procedure then it shouldn't be done simply because a mob is being disruptive and demanding it. In fact it shouldn't be done precisely because a mob is demanding it!
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I agree, since not releasing evidence is the standard protocol. If you release the evidence, you cater to mob rule and they will do nothing with it but refuse to accept it, and debate it to keep this farse going on.
There are some reports that there could be up to 8 witnesses backing Officer Wilson's account. Most are black and fearful of retribution from the black community, because they told an account different from the media spun Hands Up, Don't Shoot innocent execution by a white racist cop.
The black community would actually get support from more whites and others if they actually had a real case poster child of an innocent young black man executed by a white racist cop.
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Violia
The FBI has been active in the area undercover . There appears to be groups there looking for trouble no-matter-what.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-arrests-2-men-on-firearms-charges-near-ferguson/
http://nypost.com/2014/11/22/fbi-makes-explosive-ferguson-bust/
Other sources state the men are suspected of being members of the new black Panther party and were buying explosives from undercover FBI agents .
I lived through the 60's ( though I was young) and do not wish to see any of it again).
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Simon
The black community would actually get support from more whites and others if they actually had a real case poster child of an innocent young black man executed by a white racist cop.
They already have the support in so far as there are never protests if a cop is found guilty and fired / convicted as a result. This happens without protests.
If anyone else on the planet is stopped by a cop for walking down the middle of the road it's because they are walking down the middle of the road ... unless they are black it seems. I cannot imagine believing that everything that happened to me is because of my color and not, in actual fact, the things I do and say.
I think these attempts to make things about race instead of the behavior just makes people weary of it and feeds the negative steryotype which is actually unfair to the vast majority who don't use race as an excuse.
But this is the reason that I think the majority of non-black people rate the issue as low importance compared to other news events unless it's escalated to threaten lives and property as is happening now. But that threat of violence is the reason for the interest, not the claims that started it (IMO).
The tragedy is that any genuine and legitimate complaints about race are lost as a result of people using it as an excuse of poor behavior and bad choices. I think false accusations of racism should be like false accusations of rape - it is a serious charge and shouldn't be made lightly and making a false claim should carry some penalty. Having people on TV claiming the police are executing kids in the street is just ludicrous.