A few questions for believers

by keyser soze 48 Replies latest jw friends

  • RichardHaley

    When God did command for some people to be killed, it was for justice purpose.

    I have always wondered why God would involve men in killing and bloodshed (even at the risk of their own lives) when it would be so easy for Him to take care of it himself? He could euthanize wicked people humanely without violence, make them just disappear for all that mater.

    There are other ways to prove ones obedience to a supreme being... ones that would not confict with comandments or conscience.

    Instead of God creating man in His image it would seem man has created God in his image.

  • Perry

    Mad Giant,

    Are not you basically asking if Jesus is really just a Copy-Cat Savior Myth "borrowed" from other Gods?

    I read this years ago and it helped me to see things in a more scholarly way.

  • garyneal

    So jgnat, do you think Jesus' teachings would have been preserved orally in the absence of scripture? I'll be honest, I think without the Bible the Jesus story might have been no more than a historical footnote. Could you honestly say you'd still be a Christian if you'd never encountered a Bible?

    I don't think it was so much for the Bible that kept the Jesus story alive throughout the centuries but more of the history of the Christian church. If it had not been for Rome converting to Christianity and establishing the Roman Catholic church much of what we know and have today would not exist and the world would be much different.

  • MadGiant

    "MadGiant, just an FYI, a lot of those details about parallels to Jesus don't seem to be found in any historical sources. I don't have time for a comprehensive response, but see this for starters" -

    All of the Pagan myths had been circulating for centuries before Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). It is obvious that if any copying occurred, it was the followers of Jesus incorporating into his biography the myths and legends of Osiris-Dionysus, not vice-versa.

    Osiris, Dionysus and Jesus

    - His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin, 7 month pregnancy.
    - He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on 25 December before three shepherds.
    - He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.
    - He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.
    - He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him.
    - He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
    - After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.
    - His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.
    - His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood.



  • MadGiant

    "Are not you basically asking if Jesus is really just a Copy-Cat Savior Myth "borrowed" from other Gods?" -

    All of the Pagan myths had been circulating for centuries before Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). It is obvious that if any copying occurred, it was the followers of Jesus incorporating into his biography the myths and legends of Osiris-Dionysus, not vice-versa. I am not asking, their is no evidence.

    No sacrificing himself as a form of ritual blood sacrifice to appease the perfect justice of him/his father-God. No crucifixion or raising from the dead, nothing.

    All evidence we have for any of the spiritual events described within the Bible is the Bible itself. No physical evidence, no artifacts, no dwelling, no works of carpentry, no self-written manuscripts. No "historicity of Jesus", no "historical Jesus", nothing.

    Their is no evidence of a massive earthquakes followed by a darkness covering the land. You would think that if something like this really happened, then maybe a few local historians might have recorded it or that maybe the local astronomers would have noticed the sun blotting out three entire hours. But strangely enough, no such records exist, nothing.

    No dead people rising from their graves and roaming the streets. Surely, it’s reasonable to expect at least a few locals to mention a sudden zombie apocalypse somewhere in their memoirs, isn’t it? But nothing.

    This is reality. It doesn't matter what you, me or any of us think or do, all the items described above are real. It's reality. It's not doing to change with some wishful thinking. It is what it is.

    Take care,


  • OnTheWayOut

    1. A person must be willing to say good-bye to all his worldly posessions and even his own mother and father.

    2. He must abandon himself to Jesus.

    3. He must not only believe in Jesus as a historical figure but trust in him. For me, the kind of trust that it took for God to accept me is similar to jumping out of an airplane with a parachute on. People either fail to jump, or they fail to pull the rip cord, or they pull the rip cord of something other than the parachute, which is Christ our Savior. Most of us as JW's took the jump, but the cord we pulled wasn't Jesus Christ, it was the Watchtower corporation and our works. We might as well have tried to just flap our arms. The crash was inevetible.

    4. A person will fail to have God revealed to him personally if he puts his trust in Jesus AND ________________ (anything else). Jesus utterly rejects such a person.

    So, a person must believe that Jesus will be there for him, trust that Jesus will be there for him, trust in nothing else. That seems about right for completely rewiring your mind to decide that any little coincidence in your life is something from Jesus, anything positive in your life is from Jesus. So if your atheist brother-in-law takes pity on you in your unemployment and helps you get this awesome job, ALL PRAISE TO JESUS. If your loved one dies on the operating table, it was Jesus ending their misery. If your loved one lives on after the surgery, ALL PRAISE TO JESUS for hearing our prayers.

    You really set yourself up to see it no other way.

    Oh, and you insult everyone that didn't get some kind of answer from Jesus. They didn't fully believe, trust, or didn't do it exclusively enough. Thanks for the insult, Perry. Up yours too.

  • Heaven

    Regarding the similarities between Jesus, the Bible, etc and earlier pagan ideas/myths, I suggest one read the Egyptian "Book of the Dead" as a reference.

    Here is one link: http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ebod/

  • ablebodiedman

    If you read the post above and watched the video then Revelation should start to make more sense:

    Revelation 18:9

     "And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury (like rock stars) will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her,


  • Apognophos

    MadGiant, if you actually read the pages you linked to, you'd learn the following:

    From the Osiris page: "..." That's how much text is devoted to talking about parallels between Osiris and Jesus; if there were some, wouldn't somebody have been sure to put that info on Wikipedia?

    From the Dionysus page: "Theories regarding such parallels were popular in the 19th century but were later on mostly rejected by contemporary scholarship." There's a lot more like that under the Parallels with Christianity section. And you certainly can't accuse WP of having a pro-Christian bias!

    From the Religious Tolerance site: This is just an uncritical copy-paste of information from one book, The Jesus Mysteries, and the reviews of that book on Amazon are more than enough to point out that this is not a scholarly work, just your run-of-the-mill mythicist conspiracy stuff.

    From the dying-and-rising god article: Okay, now I know you don't read the links you post. "By the end of the 20th century, scholarly consensus had formed against the reasoning used to suggest the category, and it was generally considered inappropriate from a historical perspective." This article explains at some length that the theory is largely discredited and considered to be "parallelomania". This is the belief by many scholars who are not believers in the Bible and do not seek to defend it (in fact, I can tell you that Mettinger, a respected scholar who the article says is in favor of the theory, is actually a believing Christian).

    I encourage you to read the dying-and-rising god article in its entirety, and/or watch the video I linked to in the topic I linked to previously, where Richard Carrier dispels most of the parallels as myths -- and keep in mind as you do, this is coming from a man who believes that Jesus never existed! Then perhaps you will stop relying on speculative writing from the 1800s for your evidence.

  • Perry

    Oh, and you insult everyone that didn't get some kind of answer from Jesus. They didn't fully believe, trust, or didn't do it exclusively enough. Thanks for the insult, Perry. Up yours too.


    That's not me saying those things are required. Need I provide scriptural references? I think that you as a former elder do not need that. We all know where those scriptures are. Christianity IS OFFENSIVE, not just insulting. Christianity is utterly at war with our natural man, our very initiative to preserve ourself. It tries to give us something for free, when our natural bent is to work for it, instinctively.

    Everything we get in this life is usually worked for. Then God comes along and says, see you can't do it; here let me give it to you. Then, everyone who still wants to work a thousand years for in it "the new system" has a conniption fit. (my JW friends)

    Sin was not purchased for us, we got that damned thing through one act of disbelief, one act of distrust. Salvation from moral judgment is just the opposite; you can't work for it and it is acquired through one act of singular belief and trust.

    That makes sense to my mind, but my flesh is utterly at war with that concept because it means I'm not in control.... even though I know that the control that I think I have, is just an illusion.

    As a child, I could accept gifts. Christianity attacks our perceived goodness (attacks peer pressure too) we think we have as adults, which prevents our accepting a free gift..... for some.

    Not me, not anymore. I have seen the power and nature of God after wasting years in sin and WT idolatry... through one act of singular belief and trust. Jesus asks us to torch our bridges FIRST, then follow him. That's the offer.

    He has a right to ask this in my opinion after what he willingly did. I did it (after a 1st & 2nd try) and have experienced victory, after victory, after victory. Though I march in the Triumph, I am not the Warrior. But the victories are none the less sweet.

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