Debunking the Bible
by Coded Logic 77 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Coded Logic
Thanks everyone for their great replies. I had no idea this thread would get so much attention. Its so weird looking back how I could have ever thought the Bible was true. Had I done even the most basic research I would have clearly seen that. Amazing how the Borg keep everyone in line with group thinking.
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jhine
ok. I looked up two of the points made . I know that these answers will not change anyones mind but just for my own interest I picked a few out at random (more than two but the explanations for some - and there were explanations- would take too long to repeat )
Luke's Theophilus
He may have been Lukes patron , responsible for seeing that the wrirings were copied and distributed . Such a dedication to the publisher was common at the time .
He may have been a wealthy man in Antioch , refered to in 2nd century writings as a "great Lord " and leader in Antioch at the time of Luke . (possibly even aforementioned patron ? )
He could be the Jewish HIgh Priest named Theophilus ben Ananus , son of Annas , brother -in- law of Caiaphus .
So there are some possibilities as to who Theophilus was and those are just some that I came across very quickly .
Who was Abijah's mother ? David and Micaiah had Absalom . His daughter was Tamar who is thought to have married Uriel of Gibeah , they had Maacah , mother of Abijah . This makes Abijah's mother the grandaughter of Absalom . It was not uncommen to interchange daughter / grandaughter / - son/ grandson to simply denote that one person was a descendant of another .
So while I know that these explanations are not going to influence anyone one way or the other , by some simple digging these seeming problems can be solved .
Jan
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Terry
1. Jesus stories were told orally because the population of those times was illiterate. Many heard and believed and passed the story on by retelling.
2. Non-believers were critical.
3. Believers started shaping the stories for the sake of making the “truth” more logical more coherent and harmonious.
What was the net result?
The original story was changed. As the original changed it vanished.
What about the written stage?
The need arose to PROVE (using proof texts) true teaching.
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Each listener heard and retold his or her own "version" of the story.
By writing things down they become fixed. Just as we prove our words today by using a dictionary.
(A dictionary doesn’t originate pronunciation and meaning. It reflects the majority use becoming a reference of orthodox use for others.)
Common sense question:
Why would any sane person stake their life, their family, their eternity on something they knew was a lie or a distortion? It would be blasphemy and unthinkable.
In fact--it DIDN'T happen that way.
Note: Error comes from the honest efforts to “improve” what is written or spoken.
This is what is meant by CORRUPTION: What is changed is no longer the same.
Original words disappear and new ones appear.
How Can "error" and "corruption" like this Happen?:
If you are a translator you want your copy to communicate what is true.
You’d change any “mistake” and make it conform to what YOU thought was the correct (true) word, phrase or meaning. (Corrupt the original).
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Small example:
Leave the mistake as it is. (Uncorrupt)
- Omit the mistake. (Corrupt)
- Change it and make it come out "right". (Corrupt)
If a copyist or translator saw TWO different versions of a story told what could they do to remove the dissonance?
They would harmonize by changing them. (corrupt.)
If the copyist or translator comes to a text that contradicts their own personal theology, what could they honestly do? Transmit the “error” (preserve the original) or correct the error? (corrupt.)
Little by little, copy by copy, the ORIGINAL vanished.
"Improvements" go to the next generation of copyists and translators (which they, in turn, "Improved" and corrupted further!
Constant "improvements" and "clarifying" efforts expunged the original words, phrases, meanings of the original. (corrupt.)
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AS LONG AS THE ACTUAL AUTOGRAPH ORIGINAL REMAINS INTACT you can still compare and see where the changes happened.
Right?
Those ORIGINALS do NOT exist! They wore out or were discarded, burned or left to deteriorate.
How did anybody allow that happen?
Think about it!
The late eminent Catholic scholar, Raymond Brown, wrote:
"…neither evangelist liked Marks’s redundancies, awkward Greek expressions, uncomplimentary presentation of the disciples and Mary, and embarrassing statements about Jesus. When using Mark, both expanded the Markan accounts in the light of post-resurrectional faith.
The fact that Matthew and Luke freely altered and “corrected” Mark strongly suggests that they did not consider it to be inviolable “inspired scripture”
In view of the above what can we conclude concerning our use of the Bible today?
What about concordences? Bible dictionaries? All are based on what words we have in our translation.
1.We cannot use the actual words of scripture to discern shades of meaning.
Why?
We DON’T HAVE THE ACTUAL WORDS of scripture. Only the originals had those exact words. They no longer exist.
We can’t proof text our teachings and our doctrines by citing scripture.
We can’t prove the “harmony” of the gospels (copyists MADE it happen!)
We can’t quote the bible’s claim of inspiration to prove inspiration.(circular reasoning.)
- Nobody corrupted the bible on purpose. It is the result of pious fraud. By "fraud" we mean UNINTENTIONAL.
- The earliest manuscripts are hundreds of years removed from the originals and are themselves copies of copies of copies.
- Over the centuries the distortions became part of Christianity and its avowed Orthodoxy of necessary belief. Today by looking backward at the fictionalizing of scripture we cannot restore the originals and determine what no longer remains. We can only make guesses.
_____4. The Catholic Church adjusted their teaching because they were the first to understand this important fact. They substitute their Majesterium (traditions of men) as compensating for the lack of purity in scripture __________________
WHAT DO BIBLE APOLOGISTS SAY?
They create a false analogy. They compare ancient works of Philosophy and History to the Divinely Inspired Word of God. Why?
So that they can say "We have far more copies of scripture than we do of Plato or Aristotle".
So what?
So that they can say having MORE corrupt copies of a purported DIVINE book means we have more PROOF.
False reasoning!
If you have a counterfeit dollar bill in one room and one million counterfeit bills in another-- which room contains more REAL CURRENCY?
We have a great many ordained ministers who are NOT WELL TRAINED who are making these apologist arguments.
Combine that with Jehovah's Witnesses who actually assert the bible is without contradiction.
It is in the INTEREST of people who gain power by use of scripture that SCRIPTURE BE ELEVATED above what it deserves historically.
Exerpt from:
Presidential Lecture, Society of Biblical Literature, SE Region
March 1997
"A surprising number of PhD's in NT--we may as well admit it--are barely competent in Greek. Even more are unable to make sense of the critical
apparatus that stands at the foot of every page of the Nestle- Aland Greek New Testament that everyone uses. And even those who can construe the
apparatus are rarely equipped to understand why one reading, the one found in the text, has been printed, while others are found only in the
apparatus--let alone to come to independent judgments about the adequacy of the decision of the United Bible Society's committee, comprised of Kurt
and Barbara Aland, Bruce Metzger, and others. Commentators typically ignore textual problems, not simply because they have other things to do but
also because in many instances they don't have the wherewithal to deal with the problems..."
So--what are we finally left with that we think we KNOW?
1.There was a Jesus
2.He did some amazing things and inspired followers who didn't know what to make of him.
3.He gave specific instruction which weren't clearly understood.
4.When he was put to death there was a huge shakeup
5.Many claimed to see him and talk to him AFTER he died.
6.Everybody connected with his teaching clearly believed he would return and end the Roman rule with a Messianic one.
7.The first generation of believers kept expecting the apocalyptic end which Jesus had spoken of.
8. Roman armies brought an apocalypse to Judaism in the same way 1914 brought WWI instead of Armageddon.
9.All the True Believers had to do a RE-think about what these things meant. Clearly they had got it wrong in some significant way.
10. Writings appeared, stories were circulated, issues were discussed and reshuffled. Groups began to form around new interpretations.
This is when the distortions mixed thoroughly with whatever true stories there were.
Perhaps the True stories were too mundane and puzzling or outrageous to compete with the false stories.
What we have today is the result of the chaos and the arguments and the debates.
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES CANNOT HAVE THE TRUTH because they base their private interpretations on the bible, which,
as we have just seen--is entirely UNRELIABLE as a document/documents transmitting UNCORRUPT communication from the Divine!
Garbage in=garbage out
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objectivetruth
Very nicely stated Analogy Terry.
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Dis-Member
Well.. that just about nails it Terry!. I just felt one of the last remaining anchors get detached from my faulty brain like Neo in the Matrix when he gets unplugged..
I took the Red Pill..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE7PKRjrid4 -
Viviane
Essentially Hume is saying' If our current understanding of the Laws of Nature do not correspond with a proposed Miracle, it is impossible that a Miracle took place.
That is NOT what he said. He specifically said to judge how likely and probable it was.
What is your explanation to show that this was not a Miracle?
Let's ask a better question. How WAS it a miracle? He didn't say when it would happen. He didn't say who would do it, under what circumstances or anything very specific. He preached an apocalyptic message that said judgement and destruction was coming, they were invaded by Rome and resistance groups were everywhere AND the temple had been destroyed before.
Specifically, where was the miracle?
Campbell argued that the most important factor in determining the authenticity of testimony of a Miracle is the number of witnesses. Numerous witnesses and no evidence of collusion will supersede all other factors, Large Scale testimony is capable of providing absolute certainty even with the most miraculous event.
Such as?
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Band on the Run
I left the Witnesses b/c of the close mindedness. Many decades later, I end up at JWN, where a core group of atheists take freedom away from believers. I wonder if there isn't a contrary strand of DNA in most members. The Bible is a joke only if one believes as a fundamentalist. Fundamentalists have rights, too. Most atheists remind me of Kruschev banging his shoe at the UN. I don't recall this "hot" headedness a few years ago.
This is no way to win friends and influence people. In my entire life, I never encountered such rude atheists.
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Viviane
Specifically what freedom is being taken away, Band? What rights are being violated? Be specific, use examples.
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redvip2000
With all the scientific knowledge humans have acquired since the Bible was written, why do people still slavishly see it as the ultimate source of wisdom???
Well who can resist such insightful wisdom such as "Do not kill", or " Do not have sex outside of marriage"? Clearly nobody would have been able to figure that out without that book.
Also what other book gives you promise that if you are a good boy, you'll be able to see sheep playing catch with cheetahs for the rest of your life? What a lovely provision from Jehoober.