Contradictory geneology of Jesus

by rebel8 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    So I'm reading another Carl Sagan book and he seems to invariably find a way to slam j-dubs in each one. (I can't say I blame him.)

    Anyway, in this one he discusses the fact that the gospels give contradictory geneologies of Jesus--differing lines back to David from Joseph, and a different number of generations. Also, he mentions the geneology should trace back to Mary, since she was his bio mom, not Joseph.

    And I had one of those "d'oh!" moments. I don't remember noticing that fact. That is a dead giveaway that the bible is not inspired of a single, omniscient god, IMO.

    I looked this up and it seems rationalizations abound. Thoughts?

  • cofty
    cofty

    It is a very powerful argument. All attempts to rationalise the contradiction just don't work.

    Look especially at the few places where the two geneologies coincide and count the generations in each.

  • cofty
    cofty

    From one of my previous posts...

    Matthew’s list contains 28 names including David and (step-dad) Joseph. Luke’s contains 42 names including David and Joseph and apart from these two individuals only two more names match in these lists.

    Some biblical apologists have attempted to reconcile these lists by claiming that neither list actually attempts to give full accounts. The terms “son of” and “begat” don’t mean a direct father-son relationship but if we put the overlapping lists together we get a fuller genealogy of Jesus. In other words Luke mentions people not mentioned in Matthew and vice-versa.

    OK let’s take a closer look at this and see if it works. David lived in the 10th C. BC giving us about 1000 years between David and Jesus. As we said above Matthew gives us 28 names and Luke gives us 42. This works out at an average of 35 years per generation according to Matthew and only 23 years according to Luke. If we combine them and are careful not to count the names that appear in both lists twice that gives us a minimum of 67 generations and a time span of only 14 years per generation. This also assumes the unlikely factor of every one being a first-born and that there are no other names that both Matthew and Luke forgot to include. This is an impossible explanation.

    However Matthew does not actually allow us this generous explanation. He says emphatically…

    “Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ". Matt 1:17

    So according to Matthew there were only 28 generations between David and Jesus. So even allowing for the possibility of some individuals having more than one name Luke’s 42 generations cannot be reconciled with this plain statement of Matthew.

    2 Sam 7:12 said “When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom.”

    Paul wrote in Romans1:3 concerning “…his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,”

    And yet as we observed above there was no fleshly link at all between David and Jesus if we are to take the virgin birth story literally.

    Other apologists have proposed that one list traces the genealogy through Joseph and one through Mary. This is flatly contradicted by both gospels.

    “..and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.” – Matt 1:16

    “Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,” – Luke 3:23

    Notice by the way that they can’t even agree on the name of Joseph’s dad, typically Matthew wants to make an OT parallel and so of course Joseph has to be the son of Jacob!

    The two names that do correspond in the list also rule against this idea. If the two lists are the separate genealogies of two people they don’t get to merge at random points in this way.

  • millie210
    millie210

    I thought Heli was the father of Mary?

  • OneGenTwoGroups
    OneGenTwoGroups

    If you look at some of those generations as two groups that overlap, it all makes perfect sense.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    millie, one of those scriptures states Heli was the father of Joseph. I read an apologist article stating that he was really Mary's dad but the bible deliberately stated he was Joseph's dad because of property inheritance rights for males only. That logic is so convoluted! The bible deliberately said something wrong...mmkay...isn't that a lie? And how do we know it was deliberately wrong?

  • Jeannette
    Jeannette

    The Bible is a book of lies and plagarizes from Ancient Babylon, Rome and any other civilization they could steal from. By the way, try justifying the "virgin birth", oh, my goodness. Jesus, even if he did exist, was only a Jewish Rabbi.

  • Bart Belteshassur
    Bart Belteshassur

    rebel8 - An interesring thread but I think you were asking the right question at the end of your last post. It is a big YES the list given in Matthew is delibereately wrong. The offspring of Joconiah were banned from every sitting on the throne of David Jer:22.29. In addition compare the list with that given in 1 Chron: 3 , this shows many missing generations in Matthews list.

    Luke on the other hand gives the true line from David through Nathan.

    Cofty - The 14 generations of 35years shows that Matthew has split this list into two sections of 490years, it is the lenght of one week as used in Enoch for his world weeks, and approximately is attesting the periods from the building of the 1st temple, it's destruction, and the coming restitution.

    The use of Enoch is part of the Essene prophetic view of the timing of great events, but it is also interesting that the Dead Sea in the sectarian documents detail the rules that apply to the senior heirarchy of celebate status. They were allowed to at the age of 35yrs take a wife in order to continue the line. Is this what Matthew is showing with this list that is so evidently wrong.

    BB

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    If I recall correctly, the Watchtower claims one was Joseph's line and the other was Mary's line.

    Also, he mentions the geneology should trace back to Mary, since she was his bio mom, not Joseph.

    Exactly. It shows the sexism of the Bible that Joseph's line is included, as he is in no way relevant to Jesus being in the line of David.

    If you look at some of those generations as two groups that overlap, it all makes perfect sense.

    LOL, the old overlapping generation trick.

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    It shows the sexism of the Bible that Joseph's line is included, as he is in no way relevant to Jesus being in the line of David.

    Good point

    smiddy

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