by jam 154 Replies latest jw friends
@Laika,
I don't..this is what they say....I use to go to church....it's mostly motivational speaking...maybe a few old time preachers still preach fire & brimstone. I don't pay too much attention to what they say in the hall, I take what I need & toss out the rest. Especially, when they talk about others. Because I consider that judging....& I don't want God's job...it's too difficult...but obviously, they don't mind .....
Legacy
Hell yes!
What was the question?
just saying!
eyeuse2badub
Jesus spoke clearly of the existence of Hell and what it is.
Temptations to Sin
42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea. 43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, butfire came down from heaven [a] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books,according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not do so, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
OK, some common questions/objections to Hell.
1. God is loving, forgiving and merciful. He won't send anyone to eternal torment.
Yes but God is also Holy, righteous and the judge. To major on His love does not negate his wrath etc. In fact, His love supports it.
2. The punishment is too severe.
This arguement appeals to our carnal thinking. However, we are neither Holy, righteous, omniscient (all knowing), Creator or in any other way qualified to judge. To do so it to exalt ourselves to judge God.
3. The Second Death and the rich man and Lazarus are parabolic.
Concerning the latter, what parable has actual persons named i.e. Lazarus, Abraham, Moses etc? Additionally, is heaven a literal place?
4. The way is too narrow.
Jesus is the only way. His righteousness is attributed to those who believe. It is not the efforts of self righteousness but rather the faith in the Righteous One.
5. What about those who have never hear of Jesus or are born into other religions?
The mandate to the church is to tell everyone about the way to life. It is a question firstly for believers if they are spreading the gospel as Christ directed.
I believe God is just and to not give anyone a chance to repent would be unjust. The bible says that Christ preached the gospel to the dead so they might live 1 Peter 4:5-7 1 Peter 3:18-20
6. I'm a good person.
That is from our perspective. From the judge's perspective (who is without sin), we have all sinned and cannot enter into His Kingdom. The judgement is not a weighing scales, the bad is put on one side and the good on the other. No, we are guilty as charged. Jesus is ready to pay our fines/do the time. He has done it already. All we have to do it believe and ask Him to do it.
7. The dead are conscious of nothing. Those who enter the Lake Of Fire soon cease to exisit.
Firstly, that is not what the text says (see above). Also, why would the gospel be preached to dead according to Peter if they we "conscious of nothing" and not able to respond?
According to Ecc 9:5-6 the dead are in fact not conscious of anthing and "no more share in all that is done under the sun" i.e. here on earth.
In summation.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest’”,
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said,
“They shall not enter my rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today”, saying through David so long afterwards, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
Every blessing of life!
Stephen
What a sick, vindictive and sadistic cult biblical christianity is.
It is no better than the Taliban.
Escaping the WT was only stage one. Mentally escaping christianity was the final step to a rational mind and a well-adjusted moral compass.
Cofty, yes, another brick in the wall. Cofty, man, are we wasting our time? It seems that the brain dead zombie theists keep multiplying on us. Wherever we look there are more of them. Rational arguments seem to 'kill' some of them but they just keep coming. What do we do, Cofty!?
Hi Stephen,
The Rich Man and Lazarus account is unusually clear...but says nothing about the eternal state of any person. And no comment is even made about the duration of the rich man's anguish. BTW I think both narratives in Luke 16 constitute satire.
"https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1XTUEMUNWgM4E4qb6lNiS4Qghz-wxhc0cO4C8QYkocaY&embedded=true"
Now the Bible is a big book. You have selected the few passages you consider "clear" on the subject and yet none of these clearly define the nature of final punishment of human beings as eternal torment. However, if you quoted Eingebildet 3:16, I would not have argued.
And the wages of sin is eternal suffering in hell.
Day and night for all eternity, the wicked will
call out for mercy, but there will be none to save.
Their immortal souls will writhe in endless pain
Their anger will never dissipate. They will weep
and howl in the fires of eternity, aware of their
loss, their endless future, with no one or nothing
to comfort them. Eingebildet 3:16,
And I would expect to find such clear and unmistakable teachings in the Old Testament. I would also expect to find them in the plain teachings of the New Testament; in the 'matter of fact' gospel sayings of Jesus, in the early gospel proclamations documented in the book of Acts, and finally, in at least some of the Pauline Epistles. I would not expect to have to base my position totally on enigmatic imagery from New Testament parables and other highly symbolic literary forms that require intensive interpretive analysis.
The truth will set you free... The truth about religion and gods... and heaven or hell... Imagine all the people living for the day ;)
What a sick, vindictive and sadistic cult biblical christianity is.
It is no better than the Taliban.
As opposed to what? Science and the west, which makes a living off creating weapons of mass destruction and threatening the world with their use should they not tow the line.
WAWYM - I compared the moral compass of biblical christianity to that of the Taliban.
If you want to show that "science and the west" deserves the same judgement you have all your work still to do.
This is going to sound like a silly opinion, and it probably is.
It doesn't matter what my opinion is about a Divine Plan.
If there IS such a plan I can't change God's mind.
I possess a human nature and cannot escape this nature any more than a penguin can play a trombone.
Several different interpretations of God's salavation plan are at odds. So, those opinions can't be true.
A poor argument is to invoke a LOGICAL or PRACTICAL rebuttal of hellfire.
Why?
Who says the Deity uses human logic?
Another poor argument is one of JUSTICE.
"Grace" is unjust because the sinner gets off free and the non-sinner (sacrificed Jesus) pays the tab. That is not Justice!
I prefer (just my personal taste, mind you) to think that when I die I'll "go" back to where I was before I was conceived and born.
Where is that?
Nowhere.
