Involved with a JW woman

by jonza 130 Replies latest social relationships

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent

    jonza - So given that, should I still move forward with this relationship? I'm sure she will at some point want them, will I be able to keep her from taking them to a KH?

    Hi jonza, If she can pass the acid test I suggested earlier, then she might be able to critically think for herself. You need to decided whether to pull off the bandaid fast with a lot of pain or slowly with incremental increases in pain. When you are together, ask her to watch Steve Hassan's video Strategic Interactive Approach explained 2003 (1:23:23). If you feel a softer approach is needed than when you are together ask her to watch the following videos in the order presented:

    1. How Big is the Phenomenon of Undue Influence? (2:01)
    2. NY Ethical Culture Society February 2013 (41:09)
    3. Watch while drinking chardonay and eating chocolate covered strawberries http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIDwXYACfmM

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    Robert

  • sarahsmile
    sarahsmile

    Jonza I do not think this is the girl for you. It is time to end it.

    You need to think of your children.

    I do not recall how long you have been dating but trust me long hours on Skype or video chat is nothing like in person.

    Living together every day and trying to manipulate each other to believe or not to believe that is not love.

    Not only that your both very strong with manipulating! Not fun! Although I think she wins! only because she thinks she is in love.

    How many years do you want to spend trying to convince someone of what they believe is wrong! Trust me it takes thirty years or more!

    Let her go so she can find another worldly boy who will be okay with her religion.

    Your not okay with who she is now!

    Face the facts,maybe she can go back to meetings and find a nice JW older man.

    Having children and trying to convince her to not have any because of religious differences.Not cool.

    What is that saying! It says your trying to push her away.

    She is younger and your just manipulating her to not be a JW.

    Find a girl who is not a JW, let her go. What is the big deal? You think this will be your last love!

    Take care.

  • jonza
    jonza

    When you're in love, it's not just a matter of saying what's the big deal? Sure thing, I can drop them just like that.. I have to seriously consider all things, that's why I'm here, and I'm doing my best. But just to drop someone like that is no easy task.

    The thought of no kids with me has made her emotionally distraught, just like I thought it would. The only conslusion I can think of is that we can have them, but not be brought up in her religion. She has since agreed to this, and seems to be more happy about things. After all we've talked about how her religion doesn't teach what the really bible teaches and all the deceit and lies that are told to try to force people believing things, and how me the kids Dad would be told is a Satan worshiper and will be horribly killed at Armageddon, she realizes that it would be better to bring them up in my religion. With the caveat that they don't celebrate Christmas, mostly no tree/decorations except they are allowed to get and open presents on Christmas day (I'm not sure how else she thinks we celebrate it, maybe bowing down to the Christmas tree or something lol), I can live with that. A lot of people don't bother with a tree/decoartions, I never cared. Also, she doesn't want me teaching them the trinity. Again, in church, this isn't something that's really talked about all that much, at least not the word.

    It was actually quite funny, (I'm not interested in debating doctrine here) but I got her to basically describe who Jesus is, how he is God, but also the Son, but not the Father, and there is only one God etc basically she explained her belief as being the trinity but is still dead set against the idea of the trinity lol. Go figure.

  • Laika
    Laika

    Hey Jonza

    Have you thought about what you'll say when the Trinity doctrine comes up with your children? I accept it doesn't get mentioned often but it's still a fundamental part of Christian theology and will come up at some point, and I assume you don't want to tell your kids it's a false doctrine.

    Will they be allowed to celebrate birthdays (which is more than just presents) Thanksgiving and Easter? If they're not allowed to celebrate Christmas does this mean school activities based around the holiday are out too?

  • jonza
    jonza

    I am going to try to get her watch Hassans videos. She let me talk for three hours straight the other night about mind control, so I think she'll be open to it.

    We said if it came up, I'd be able to say basically what the Bible teaches, both sides of the argument. If the kids are old enough to ask their old enough to know. I doubt she'd be happy about Christmas celebrations at school/church; I can go a long with that until the kids are old enough to decide for themselves. Besides, they're not in the KHs to hear all the non sense, they will get it from her, but at least will get a balanced view from me. Birthdays are okay with cakes (no candles), presents but no parties, but I can take them out for the day. That's fine with me. Her Dad is not a JW and he would always take her and her bros out somewhere and give them a cake, so she's more open to birthdays. No to thanksgiving, I'm from UK but live in the US, so I don't care. Easter I never celebrated really anyway. I don't give my kids easter eggs or whatever. I focus on what it's really about.

  • Iown Mylife
    Iown Mylife

    Dear Jon, what's really good is that you won't need to go any farther than your bathroom mirror to see where your disastrous situations first began...print out this thread and file it away, then read it over in about 18 months.

    I hope we were all way off about how it's gonna go...

    Marina

  • Frazzled UBM
    Frazzled UBM

    jonza - I am sorry to say it but I think you are too keen to make compromises in respect of kids who are still only theorietical possibilities - smacks a little bit of desperation - is having kids with this woman really so critical that you are prepared to allow them to be exposed to virulent WBTS indoctrination. I have refused all of those concessions. I celebrate all the holidays with my son and he gets zero indoctrination. My wife has learnt to accept this. I see this as my duty to my son as his father to protect him from abusive WBTS psychologically manipulative material. Her father was not a JW but yet her mother exposed her to the material and it still has a hold over her. Let this be a lesson to you. If you have no prospect of succeeding with a zero tolerance approach then my advice is walk away. Sorry to rant but I think you are thinking with the little head. Cheers Fraz

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    I think you are naive to think you can enforce the no kids rule. Unintended pregnancies happen all the time with just about every birth control method, so unless you get snipped that is always a possibility. She has already shown herself to be manipulative, and the drive to procreate is always there, so it's very possible you could end up being a father again whether you want to or not. There is every possibility that she will want the children to be indoctrinated into the cult. They have a book for children that is very inappropriate, showing people being killed by God for not being JWs, so even if she doesn't take them to the Kingdom Hall they could be affected. And then what happens if you split up? Any promise she made goes out the window, she will feel it is her duty to take them to the meetings, and you will not be able to do anything about it.

    She obviously wants this relationship very badly, so she is temporarily willing to compromise on her beliefs, but once you guys get married she will likely start feeling guilty and revert back to her cult self. She might even be consciously be planning this. I have seen this scenario played out many times, young women have their rebellion, get married or have a relationship out of the religion, start having children and then feel they have to go back to raise their children "in the truth".

    Just be sure you think through all the possible scenarios before you commit. Keep trying to break through the cult persona, I think that is possible, but you aren't there yet, it does take time to break through the years of cult mind control.

  • Incognito
    Incognito

    Jonza said:

    Incognito: I understand her situation and why she has to keep me secret, especially with everything she's willing to give up to be with me.

    That does not answer the question I asked. If you don't wish to publically state how YOU FEEL, at least be honest with yourself and with her.

    Being with you (Marrying you -an unbeliever) is not a disfellowshipping offense although it is not looked upon favourably. Sex while unmarried is a disfellowshipping offense but she has been keeping that under wraps.

    What is it you think she is willing to give up to be with you?

    As it's so easy for her to mislead her family and the people she considers as representing God's organization, how much easier will it be to mislead you when a situation is difficult for her?

    There's no way I'd let my kids hear how their Dad worships satan/demons and is part of a world wide false religion.

    You haven't heard the talks that 'warn' JWs, (kissing, being married to, having sex with) an unbeliever, is equal to (kissing, being married to, having sex with) a corpse since the unbeliever will soon die at Armageddon.

    She just says we're not having any then... So given that, should I still move forward with this relationship?

    A relationship should not be dependant on children. If you don't have a strong base to start with, you cannot provide a good, stable and happy environment for yourselves much less any children that may come about.

    The thought of no kids with me has made her emotionally distraught, just like I thought it would. The only conslusion I can think of is that we can have them, but not be brought up in her religion.

    Based only upon a hypothetical situation, you already agree to compromise to give-in to manipulation.

    With the caveat that they don't celebrate Christmas, mostly no tree/decorations except they are allowed to get and open presents on Christmas day (I'm not sure how else she thinks we celebrate it, maybe bowing down to the Christmas tree or something lol), I can live with that.

    Another compromise to keep peace even though you don't understand the reason behind it.

    I believe the main reason for no tree, no lights etc, these things are usually visible to the outside of the home or are impossible to hide, thereby making Christmas celebration very obvious, especially to members of her congregation and family who may pass-by or drop-in.

    Presents OTOH, are lower key as they will remain a 'secret' sin as they can be easily hidden from plain sight. I already doubt that gift wrappings if any, will have a Christmas theme. I also doubt the children will be able to state what they 'got for Christmas'.

    As Laika stated, there are other holidays in addition to Christmas which are taboo to JWs. As there are often associated activities in school including daily opening ceremonies, what else will you be expected to compromise to? (Awww pleeeeease - for me- just this one thing!)

    In addition to her expectations and requirements, you will also need to deal with the expectations and requirements of her JW parents. It could be three against you with you portrayed as the 'bad' and unreasonable one. Your children will be confused as they will be told the fun things you advocate, make Jehovah 'sad'. (see this video of a JW cartoon movie about 'Caleb')

    Relationships are already hard enough without being made more difficult due to baggage from a cult upbringing. Although I have no doubt your GF is sincere in stating she will allow certain things which she had been brought up to believe were 'bad', she has not given full consideration to future outcomes although she now seems to think that whatever can be hidden from other people is OK.

    The indoctrination is so deep rooted, this cult will become a larger focus especially after she has had children and after experiencing any other major life event (ie: major illness or death of a close relation).

    If you think this topic consumes much time and energy now, you haven't seen anything yet.

    Unless she herself recognises the religion is BS, there is little you or anyone else can do to change her attitude or mindset.

    Good luck in how you proceed!

  • nonjwspouse
    nonjwspouse

    as incognito says

    The indoctrination is so deep rooted, this cult will become a larger focus especially after she has had children and after experiencing any other major life event (ie: major illness or death of a close relation).

    If you think this topic consumes much time and energy now, you haven't seen anything yet.

    Unless she herself recognises the religion is BS, there is little you or anyone else can do to change her attitude or mindset.

    Good luck in how you proceed!

    I know this from personal experience, in fact, dealing with it right now. It is pure relationship hell on earth for me right now. Honestly, you must think about this very, very real situation. If her belief is still in the JW, if she refused to watch hassan, or read COC, or discuss hassan and the hallmarks of cults, with those hallmarks being present in the WT then she is 99.9% probably NOT going to keep her promises to you. For her to admit the GB is NOT gods only channel of communication on earth would be a biggie. If she did/said/believed all those things I mentioned, she would want to get out of the WT. BUT, even with all that, she may still revert back and the hell would begin.

    So really, it's either the WT as the third "person" in your marriage that ALWAYS trumps you, or find another person in this world that is not so obviously a set up for disaster.

    I hate to burst a love bubble, but when I am in the middle of this very thing, (but I am a woman), I can't stand to see someone else walking into the same fire.

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