JW Justifies Societies Pedophiles

by DakotaRed 62 Replies latest jw friends

RedhorseWoman

Have you ever heard of the separation of church and state? Are you so faithless so as to doubt Yahweh's ability to qualify his own for his service?
Hilda, have you ever considered the concept of criminal activity? Do you consider the protection of a child molester, or a murderer, or a thief to be the proper exercise of ecclesiastical privilege? Do you consider it proper for parents to be advised to "leave things in Jehovah's hands" when their child's safety is concerned? Do you consider it proper to have this child denied justice for the crimes committed against them?
If Bowen is kicked out--it will not be for his child advocacy, we can assure you. You are just a biggot.
You can assure us of this? How? Bill Bowen has asked that any "sins" he has committed be made public. Can you tell us the Society's reply to this? Other than the nebulous "causing divisions" that they have so far listed, and which is meaningless.
And why does Dakota's statement make him a bigot? Could you please explain your reasoning on this? Throwing out insults does not give them validity. Perhaps you were not aware of this.
The jw was not justifying cases in the jw religion.
Interesting. Could you please show evidence of the WTBTS beginning to take action to rid its congregations of pedophiles? Something other than empty rhetoric, which is all I've seen happen so far.
Everything that J.R. Brown has stated in his press releases is worthless unless it is followed by action on the part of the Society.
Where is that action?
HildaBingen

:Hilda, have you ever considered the concept of criminal activity? Do you consider the protection of a child molester, or a murderer, or a thief to be the proper exercise of ecclesiastical privilege? Do you consider it proper for parents to be advised to "leave things in Jehovah's hands" when their child's safety is concerned? Do you consider it proper to have this child denied justice for the crimes committed against them?:
Let us set my statements in context, shall we, dear? One participant in this place suggested that the superior authorities should handle all cases of molestation in the organization and that the elders should have nothing to do with matters. I think that idea is not feasible from a biblical standpoint, dear. Let us say that "privilege" should not be invoked and that cases involving abuse should be turned over to the proper authorities. Does that mean that the elders, simply because they are "untrained" should have nothing to do with the case? Not according to God, it does not mean that, hon.
:
If Bowen is kicked out--it will not be for his child advocacy, we can assure you. You are just a biggot.
You can assure us of this? How? Bill Bowen has asked that any "sins" he has committed be made public. Can you tell us the Society's reply to this? Other than the nebulous "causing divisions" that they have so far listed, and which is meaningless.:
Look at what Bowen is during before the public now. Look at his posts in this place. I am not saying that Bowen should be DF for his dissident sentiments. But if he Df, anyone in her right mind should be able to see why.
:And why does Dakota's statement make him a bigot? Could you please explain your reasoning on this? Throwing out insults does not give them validity. Perhaps you were not aware of this.:
Read the title of this thread, dearie. That alone tells me that dakota is a biggot.
:
The jw was not justifying cases in the jw religion.
Interesting. Could you please show evidence of the WTBTS beginning to take action to rid its congregations of pedophiles? Something other than empty rhetoric, which is all I've seen happen so far.:
What do your questions have to do with my words that you quote? The jw was not justifying cases of abuse in jw religion. Anybody that cannot see that fact needs her head examined.
ThatSucks

Hello again 'Hilda'.
::: You got it all wrong again. Repentance is only of value when it is genuine and rendered in godly fear.
:: Oh, you must really be mystical then Greg. Here you are indirectly claiming to read the hearts of others as a voodoo priest would. I agree that 'Repentance is only of value when it is genuine and rendered in godly fear', because God has nothing to do with it. (I realize this is not what you meant, but I used the term "godly" in a different way than you talk about in my 'suckian language')
: I cannot read hearts, dear. If reading hearts were required, then the Christian congregation would not be able to reinstate or allow anyone to be a part of it. all we have to go by are fruits of repentance. Until a person proves that she is irreformable, we continue to lovingly deal with her.
Sorry about that Greg. When I said that your words reminded me of catholicism, I was referring to the notion that someone could do something very 'naughty' and then claim repentance and walk the walk and talk the talk to get away with it, as catholics are sometimes stereotyped. When you said 'Repentance is only of value when it is genuine and rendered in godly fear', I ASSumed that you were implying that only JWs truly repent (vs. catholics), which later led me to say: 'Oh, you must really be mystical then Greg. Here you are indirectly claiming to read the hearts of others as a voodoo priest would.' While I did mean what I said re: godly, I retract any further discussion of this 'angle', as I 'phucked up'.
:: Since you already acknowledge the authorities as superior, why not encourage the elders to allow the ones professionally trained to deal with the situation handle the situation, instead of "untrained volunteers"?:
: Have you ever heard of the separation of church and state?
Yes, I have. While I am all for allowing folks to practice their religion as they wish, I do not like seeing a religion's theocratic policies unnecessarily endanger others. I don't like to see a JW pedo repent and bypass the same justice that another member of society would face should he be caught or confess. The same goes for every religion on this planet, IMO.
: Are you so faithless so as to doubt Yahweh's ability to qualify his own for his service?
Since faith is determined by the convictions of the individual, I would have to answer in the affirmative, especially if they are not trained to handle these abusive situations in a manner that will HELP the victim instead of repress them. Besides, a man sticking his wanker in a young one has nothing to do with spirituality, and everything to do with crime, at least in my country.
: l'kiddush hashem.
I always enjoy your morologia Greg.
RedhorseWoman

Let us set my statements in context, shall we, dear? One participant in this place suggested that the superior authorities should handle all cases of molestation in the organization and that the elders should have nothing to do with matters. I think that idea is not feasible from a biblical standpoint, dear. Let us say that "privilege" should not be invoked and that cases involving abuse should be turned over to the proper authorities. Does that mean that the elders, simply because they are "untrained" should have nothing to do with the case? Not according to God, it does not mean that, hon.
Well, hon, I do not see how turning over molestation cases to the proper authorities should mean that the elders should have nothing to do with the case. Where did I imply that, dear? Let the elders handle the religious aspects of it, and let the authorities handle the criminal aspects, shall we, hon?
Look at what Bowen is during before the public now. Look at his posts in this place. I am not saying that Bowen should be DF for his dissident sentiments. But if he Df, anyone in her right mind should be able to see why.
Well, hon, I guess I am, in your opinion, demented. I do not see how speaking up about a problem denotes "sin". Catholics are speaking out about the situation in their church. Should they, therefore, be excommunicated? Please enlighten me as to his "sin".....according to the scriptures, of course.....hon.
Read the title of this thread, dearie. That alone tells me that dakota is a biggot.
So, then, dear, what is YOUR definition of bigot? Once again, I guess I'm a little slow and I need more specifics.
What do your questions have to do with my words that you quote? The jw was not justifying cases of abuse in jw religion. Anybody that cannot see that fact needs her head examined.
Well, hon, sweetie, dear, if someone supports another when that person has participated in heinous acts, it would appear to be a justification of that person's actions, would it not? Supporting an organization that refuses to correct the situation wherein criminals are allowed to remain in good standing and victims are expelled would appear to most sane people to be justification of those actions.
Do you see things differently? BTW, I just examined my head. It appears to be exactly where it should be.....hon.
ThatSucks

Hello once again 'Hilda', I just couldn't resist commenting
: Show us where anyone has been kicked out of jws for being a "child advocate" or a victim of child abuse.
Impossible. Since the elders probably won't talk about it, and since anyone who knew about it was probably pressured into silence, very few people who would be considered as credible by you (i.e. non-apostates) would even be aware of the situation.
: It might have happened in rare cases. But this ol' lady can almosty guarantee you that the wrong was in time righted.
How? By silencing the victim and 'reproving' the perpatrator? What did you do, take the microphone away. Oh man, that's terrible!
: If Bowen is kicked out--it will not be for his child advocacy, we can assure you. You are just a biggot.
No kidding. You can't kick him out for child advocacy, it would be a suicidal way of wording things. You are just worring about him possibly 'causing divisions', you obviously don't give a damn about why he could be 'causing divisions'. That would be acknowledging what is obvious to 60% of humanity.
HildaBingen

Deat that:
:Have you ever heard of the separation of church and state?
Yes, I have. While I am all for allowing folks to practice their religion as they wish, I do not like seeing a religion's theocratic policies unnecessarily endanger others. I don't like to see a JW pedo repent and bypass the same justice that another member of society would face should he be caught or confess. The same goes for every religion on this planet, IMO.:
Keep in mind that I am not saying that the authorities should not deal with the molester. I am just trying to explain why the congregation may accept a "molester" back into the congregation just as they would accept an adulterer or a homosexual. All of these acts are sexual sins.
: Are you so faithless so as to doubt Yahweh's ability to qualify his own for his service?
Since faith is determined by the convictions of the individual, I would have to answer in the affirmative, especially if they are not trained to handle these abusive situations in a manner that will HELP the victim instead of repress them. Besides, a man sticking his wanker in a young one has nothing to do with spirituality, and everything to do with crime, at least in my country.:
Not every case of pedophilia involves penis-vaginal-anal penetration and you know that. But even fondling, I would agree, is horrible and has nothing to do with true spirituality indeed. Today this act is unlawful in the Us because of positive law designed to protect children. In ancient Greece or ancient Judaism, pedophilia was not a crime per se. But today I have faith that the elders are qualified to do what they are appointed to do. God directs his organization and if changes need to be made, he will see that they are made. Getting impatient or trying to force God's hand does not work.
: l'kiddush hashem.
I always enjoy your morologia Greg.:
Do you likie my logomachy as well, whoever you are? BTW, I never said I was Greg [Stafford?]. Hilda is an ol' lady mystic.
HildaBingen

:Well, hon, I do not see how turning over molestation cases to the proper authorities should mean that the elders should have nothing to do with the case. Where did I imply that, dear? Let the elders handle the religious aspects of it, and let the authorities handle the criminal aspects, shall we, hon?:
Alrighty then. I think we see eye to eye on this point, hon.
:quote:
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Look at what Bowen is during before the public now. Look at his posts in this place. I am not saying that Bowen should be DF for his dissident sentiments. But if he Df, anyone in her right mind should be able to see why.
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Well, hon, I guess I am, in your opinion, demented. I do not see how speaking up about a problem denotes "sin". Catholics are speaking out about the situation in their church. Should they, therefore, be excommunicated? Please enlighten me as to his "sin".....according to the scriptures, of course.....hon.:
Speaking about a problem is not a sin. It is how one speaks about a problem and the medium she uses to speak about the problem. I have nothing to do with the Catholic Church. I let them dictate their own policy. But I can say that when Hans Kung, heretic that he is, was openly taking issue with church doctrine--the society said that he was wrong in his approach. The brothers are then consistent. They said that Kung should handle the matter between his church and himself. My whole problem with Bowen is his approach even on this board. Do you want me to go through Bowen's old posts and remind you of why he might be DF?
:So, then, dear, what is YOUR definition of bigot? Once again, I guess I'm a little slow and I need more specifics.:
A bigot is intolerant of other's views and dedicated to her own agenda or political stand. Bigots will often skew statments to make those who disagree with them look bad. That is what dakota has done by claiming that a jw justifies pedophilia. Read the jw website he is talking about for yourself. You may criticize it. but one can not honestly say that the jw in question justifies pedo activity.
:quote:
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What do your questions have to do with my words that you quote? The jw was not justifying cases of abuse in jw religion. Anybody that cannot see that fact needs her head examined.
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Well, hon, sweetie, dear, if someone supports another when that person has participated in heinous acts, it would appear to be a justification of that person's actions, would it not? Supporting an organization that refuses to correct the situation wherein criminals are allowed to remain in good standing and victims are expelled would appear to most sane people to be justification of those actions.
Do you see things differently? BTW, I just examined my head. It appears to be exactly where it should be.....hon:
The jw is not supported pedos. Read what he says, sweetie! The org has not refused to correct anything. You are misrepresenting the society and you know it. No victim has been expelled for being a victim. You can produce no examples of such cases. If you can, I will reexamine this issue. You need to stop believing the rhetoric of Bowen. He took the wrong way instead of the right way.
You evidently are also too dense to understand English idioms. That is okay, hon. I will let it pass.
Remember that the wheels of God turn slowly but they grind exceedingly small.
l'kiddush hashem.
HildaBingen

: Show us where anyone has been kicked out of jws for being a "child advocate" or a victim of child abuse.
Impossible. Since the elders probably won't talk about it, and since anyone who knew about it was probably pressured into silence, very few people who would be considered as credible by you (i.e. non-apostates) would even be aware of the situation:
Just like I thought. Just a bunch of assertions with nary a bit of evidence to back it up.
: It might have happened in rare cases. But this ol' lady can almosty guarantee you that the wrong was in time righted.
How? By silencing the victim and 'reproving' the perpatrator? What did you do, take the microphone away. Oh man, that's terrible!:
Read what I wrote again. I was talking about if a victim was DF, the wrong being righted. Do you get it now?
: If Bowen is kicked out--it will not be for his child advocacy, we can assure you. You are just a biggot.
No kidding. You can't kick him out for child advocacy, it would be a suicidal way of wording things. You are just worring about him possibly 'causing divisions', you obviously don't give a damn about why he could be 'causing divisions'. That would be acknowledging what is obvious to 60% of humanity.:
Anyone who has read Bowen website or posts here knows why he MIGHT be kicked out. That is obvious to any sane or rational or truly mystical person.
l'kiddush hashem.
ThatSucks

Deat that:
::: Have you ever heard of the separation of church and state?
:: Yes, I have. While I am all for allowing folks to practice their religion as they wish, I do not like seeing a religion's theocratic policies unnecessarily endanger others. I don't like to see a JW pedo repent and bypass the same justice that another member of society would face should he be caught or confess. The same goes for every religion on this planet, IMO.:
: Keep in mind that I am not saying that the authorities should not deal with the molester. I am just trying to explain why the congregation may accept a "molester" back into the congregation just as they would accept an adulterer or a homosexual. All of these acts are sexual sins.
Well, shiver me timbers. This is interesting news. So, it is your contention that the elders should indeed report suspected pedophilia to the police (even in a non-reporting state)? I am just wondering because in your post above, you did say:
If the state required such action I would agree for then superior authoritties would come into play. Otherwise, I say let the elders handle matters according to Paul and the rest of Bible.
The bold is mine. Anyway, have you changed your mind, or am I misunderstanding you? Please explain.
::: Are you so faithless so as to doubt Yahweh's ability to qualify his own for his service?
:: Since faith is determined by the convictions of the individual, I would have to answer in the affirmative, especially if they are not trained to handle these abusive situations in a manner that will HELP the victim instead of repress them. Besides, a man sticking his wanker in a young one has nothing to do with spirituality, and everything to do with crime, at least in my country.:
: Not every case of pedophilia involves penis-vaginal-anal penetration and you know that. But even fondling, I would agree, is horrible and has nothing to do with true spirituality indeed. Today this act is unlawful in the Us because of positive law designed to protect children. In ancient Greece or ancient Judaism, pedophilia was not a crime per se. But today I have faith that the elders are qualified to do what they are appointed to do. God directs his organization and if changes need to be made, he will see that they are made. Getting impatient or trying to force God's hand does not work.
Than that settles it. Like many other people of your religion, you 'have faith that the elders are qualified to do what they are appointed to do.' So that explains why this issue exists. Naive people like you throw blind-faith at folks who take advantage of the situation right behind your back. Wonderful. Now we see the original problem of the catholic church, and why they were able to keep a lid on things for as long as they have. And in regards to your notion of God making changes and others trying to force his hand, it sounds to me like your God is a bit more on the human side than many others I know of.
: Do you likie my logomachy as well, whoever you are? BTW, I never said I was Greg [Stafford?]. Hilda is an ol' lady mystic.
No, I said that you were simply 'Greg'. It is also my current opinion, subject to change at a moment's notice. (New Light, if you will).
dungbeetle

Someone summed it up once this way: (I think it was Venice)
Some persons (a big chuck of the world)make no distinctions between those who commit child rape and those who harbor them.
Some persons (Watchtower) make a distinction. They didn't actually assult the child themself personally, so they can do anything they want and not be a supporter/enabler/co-conspirator.
THOSE DAYS ARE OVER.
This is not about the d**n child rapists, okay? THIS IS ABOUT THE VICTIMS/SURVIVORS.
And need i remind you that some of these victims did not survive their JW attackers. (Kostelniuk for one). THOSE ARE VOICES WE CAN'T HEAR RIGHT NOW.
UADNA-US (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-United States)

JW Justifies Societies Pedophiles

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