It has to be small percentage, but the few that wake up know what the price is for speaking out. I am sure that 100% of the DO's and CO's have doubts and simply handle it by applying faith as the fix for everything.
How Many Circuit Overseers And District Overseers Really Believe The Governing Body Is Really The Faithful and Discreet Slave and That The Watchtower Is God's Earthly Organization?
by frankiespeakin 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Apognophos
That link doesn't work for me even when copy-pasting it, bjc2read.
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bjc2read
Sorry Apognophos,
It works fine in my browser.
I tested the link in "Firefox," "Google Chrome" and "Explorer" and they worked just fine, in all three (3) browsers.
Perhaps, we could re-post some of the info below, for those who simply can't read it.
bjc
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bjc2read
Looks like a lot of the links given in the original thread, are real old, so most just don't work.
Anyway, here is how the original controversial post starts out, posted by "iloowy" :
The following is a translation of a message to EXTJ.com/foro (let's call it the Spanish JWD)
The poster "jerubaal1914" from Spain is very respected and has been a good source of inside info.
Below I've done a quick translation of his message and quote the original in Spanish at:http://www.extj.com/foro/view_topic.php?id=4684&forum_id=1
Hello friends. Yesterday, apart from some sad events, I had a very interesting day, too interesting, and I must tell you what. After going to the cinema, as I said before in another thread, I received a surprising call from an acquaintance, a district overseer in Spain--for whatever reason I happened to have my cell phone with me--and he told me “I need to talk to you. I'm with someone else”. I thought he was referring to my father.
The truth is that I got nervous, I couldn’t help it. I told him that we could have dinner together, and he asked me to please use discretion. And he had plenty of motives to be discreet. We went to dinner at a famous restaurant in Madrid.
My surprise was when he introduced me to the third person in question--a circuit overseer. Imagine the situation. I had to swallow hard because I did not know what was going on.
I did not know what to say. For a moment I thought they were going to talk to me about the discussion forum, everything that I was saying there, and they were going to threaten me with something ... but it didn’t go like that at all.
He (the DO) began to speak in a tone of voice very different from the Assemblies. His first speech was: Do not worry: We're just as fed up as you are.
Dear forum buddies, let me tell you, dinner lasted for over three hours. I do not want to recount every expression and information discussed because the locations and situations can give a lot away, but I can tell you that what I have been told are gems. I’ll tell you some, though.
The DO told me: “We are tired of Bethel and Brooklyn regulations.” He began telling me how they are instructed on supervising circuits, and how their only goal is that everything be done according to the ways of Brooklyn and their guidelines. Whatever else Brooklyn doesn’t care how it’s done. He told me about the arrangement of the Book Study, that deleting it has not settled very well with the WT purists and those who are not, because they have left us with "our asses in the air."
The CO told me that he’d been requested lists of brothers both Ministerial Servants and Elders who’ve been regularly missing the Book Studies so as to remove their privileges, and that now " what were they going to do."
The CO told me that more and more congregations are becoming more independent, that he understands why, and that there are bodies of elders who surpass Bethel Olympicicly, and what that means. Because he also does. In his own words he said: "for years now the talk outlines have me by the b***s " (I won’t say the profanity he used).
The CO drew from the right pocket of his Summer jacket, by the way a brand name one, a letter .... guess which one! The outline of the meeting of Elders and MS with the Circuit Overseer. And he had underlined the words: “family needs are secondary.” Does that sound familiar? He told me it was the most absurd thing he’d ever heard. He got a little more heated and said: “F**k’em up the a**.”
So now I told them: “Well, and why talk to me about this? I don’t know anything” I said. “I don’t understand.” Until this moment, I was quiet and waited to see whether it was a conversation-trap.
The replied that they know about me, and that if I chose to leave as a JW it was for a good reason. They told me they knew of my conversations with other elders (How ???), and that what I thought and I said in my committee was the same thing the majority of CO’s and DO’s were thinking... I asked them how it was they knew what I’d been saying at these meetings. They answered with: "Do you need to ask or are you telling us?"
They told me that they are privy to letters that get passed around between very important members of Bethel (Spain Branch) and the Society, and that people very HIGH UP in Bethel tell them everything up to the second. They didn’t name names... but said "let us say that if I were the branch committee, I’d be wary of EVERYONE at my table. Verbatim Text of the DO. He told me: “I can read up to here."
Here comes the funny part. They asked me to please join this forum EXTJ.COM, that many CO’s read the forum more that their own Watchtower, and publish letters they will give me, or comments they make to me, because they can communicate with other CO’s this way. Mary, David ... are you hallucinating? I spoke of the forum, and some of those who post here. Mary, David, once again ... Did you know that you are the new Watchtower in many circuits?
They told me they have suspicions of having "spies" behind, and assured me that Bethel has begun a witch hunt, as they are very nervous with people who are giving inside information. They told me that in Bethel nobody dares to send e-mails with "sensitive" information, because they fear that they are spying on the computers.
Well, then we talked about doctrines and started to laugh at Daniel and Revelation. One of them, with a glass of wine, told me: “What do I look like, Rutherford?”
I swear it’s like I was having hallucinations. I did not know that until this point how things were. They told me that they are embarrassed to do the Book Study with Revelation, and that when they're in meetings, sometimes they go to the lobby so as not to listen to the nonsense, making like they’re going over paperwork. Hallucinating it seemed, friends of the forum.
Incidentally, the CO’s tongue was getting warmed up, he told me: I’ve been tired of the circuit for quite a while. Let’s see if I can get drunk and they’ll assign me to Bethel, like they did Juan V. (those in Spain know who I’m talking about)
Forum members ... Do you know that I'm still feeling like it was a hallucination? I’ll tell you more things the next time. But I assure you that this is the strangest thing that has ever happened to me. By the way, finally, I told them that I would join the forum.
CO and DO if you are reading my post, you know who I am. Since I told you night that there would be a surprise.
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Original post in SpanishHola amigos. Ayer, aparte de los sucesos tristes que hubo, tuve un fin de día interesante, demasiado interesante, y os lo tengo que contar. Tras ir al cine, como antes expresé en otro hilo, recibí una llamada sorprendente de un conocido superintendente de distrito en España. Por la razón que sea tenia mi móvil, y me dijo: Tengo que hablar contigo. Voy con alguien más. Pensé que se refería a mi padre.
La verdad es que me puse nervioso, no lo pude evitar. Le dije que si cenábamos en un sitio, y me pidió por favor discrección. Los motivos sobran. Fuimos a cenar a un conocidísimo restaurante de Madrid.
Mi sorpresa fue cuando se presentó el tercero en discordia: un superintendente de circuito. Imaginaros la situación. Tragué saliva, porque no sabía de qué iba todo.
No sabía qué decir. Por un momento creí que me iban a hablar del foro, de todo lo que estaba diciendo, y que me iban a amenazar...pero todo fue distinto.
Comenzó a hablar el SD, con un tono de voz muy distinto al de las Asambleas. Su primera expresión fue: No te preocupes: Estamos igual de hartos que tú.
Queridos foristas, la cena duró más de tres horas. No quiero contar todas las expresiones y datos, pues por ubicaciones y situaciones los pueden descubrir, pero sí puedo deciros perlas que me han dicho. Cuento algunas.
El SD me dijo: estamos hartos de Betel y de las normativas americanas. Me empezó a contar cómo los instruyen para supervisar a los circuitos, y cómo su único objetivo es el de que todo se haga a la manera de Brooklyn en cuanto a directrices. El resto les da igual. Me contó que el arreglo del Estudio del Libro, de eliminarlo ha sentado muy mal, tanto en puristas como en los que no lo son, porque les han dejado con "el culo al aire".
El SC me dijo que él había pedido listas de hermanos SM y Ancianos que faltaban a los Estudios del Libro con asiduidad para quitarles los privilegios, y que ahora "qué iban a hacer".
El SC me dijo que cada vez las congregaciones son mas independientes, y que hay cuerpos de ancianos que pasan "olimpicamente de Betel" y que el lo entiende. Porque él también lo hace. EN sus palabras me dijo: "desde hace años me paso el bosquejo por los mismisimos" (no llegó a decir la palabrota)
El SC sacó de su bolsillo derecho de una chaquetita de verano, por cierto, de marca, una carta....adivinad!!!! el bosquejo de la reunión de ancianos y sm con el circuito. Y tenía subrayado la expresión: las necesidades de familia son secundarias. ¿os suena no? Me dijo que era de lo más aberrante que había oído. Este se le fue un poco más la olla y dijo: Que les den por el culo.
En ese momento les dije: bueno, y porqué habláis conmigo de esto? Yo no sé nada les dije. No os entiendo. Hasta este momento, yo callado, y esperando ver si era una conversación-trampa.
Me respondieron que saben de mi caso, y que si yo opté por marcharme de ser TJ fue por algo. Me dijeron que sabían de mis conversaciones con otros ancianos (¿¿¿cómo???), y que lo que yo pensaba y dije en mi comíté era lo mismo que piensa....LA MAYORÍA DE LOS SC y SD. Les dije que como sabían de mis conversaciones en el comité y em respondieron: "nos lo preguntas o nos lo cuentas?"
Me contaron que se cartean con miembros muy importantes de Betel las cartas de la Sociedad, y que gente MUY ALTA de Betel les cuenta todo al segundo. No me dijeron quien........pero dijeron "digamos que si yo fuera el comité de sucursal, miraría extraño a TODOS los de mi mesa. Palabras textuales del SD. Me dijo: hasta aquí puedo leer. "
Aqui viene lo gracioso. Me pidieron por favor que me metiera en este foro EXTJ.COM, que muchos SC leen más el foro que las propias Atalayas, y que fuera publicando cartas que me van a dar, o comentarios que me hagan, porque es su manera de comunicarse con otros SC. Mary, David....¿no alucinais? Me hablaron del foro, y de algunos de los que aqui postean. Mary, David, una vez más...¿sabiais que sois la nueva Atalaya de muchos circuitos?
Me dijeron que tienen sospechas de que tengan "espias" detrás, y me aseguraron que Betel ha comenzado una caza de brujas, pues están muy nerviosos con las personas que desde dentro están dando información. Me dijeron que en Betel nadie se atreve a enviar e-mails con información "sensible", pues se temen que les estén espiando los ordenadores.
Bueno, luego hablamos de doctrinas y se partían de risa con Daniel y Apocalipsis. Uno, con una copa de vino me dijo: A que parezco Rutherford?
Os juro que alucinaba. No sabía que hasta este punto las cosas están así. Me llegaron a decir que se averguerzan de dar el E.L. con el Apocalipsis, y que cuando están en las reuniones, por no escuchar sandeces, a veces se van al descansillo, a hacer que están viendo papeles. Alucinar amigos del foro.
Por cierto, al SC se el calentaba la lengua, y me dijo: hace mucho que estoy cansado del circuito. A ver si me emborracho y me llevan a Betel, como a Juan V. (los de España saben de que hablo)
Foristas....¿sabeis que todavia estoy alucinando? Os contaré mas cosas de la próxima vez que nos veamos. Pero os aseguro que esto es lo más extrano que me ha pasado. Por cierto, por ultimo, les dije que me metería al foro.
SC-SD, si me estáis leyendo, ya sabéis quien soy. Ya os dije anoche que tendríais una sorpresa.
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Apognophos
I am in Firefox too, not sure why the link doesn't work. That's a very interesting post, though without the context of following Spanish forums I'm not sure if I can believe it. I suspect that disgruntled COs/DOs would be more common further from the HQ, though. I think most of the ones close to U.S. Bethel are probably good company men and will not cause trouble.
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bjc2read
Hi Apognophos,
Here is another experience posted on this particular thread, that's a little more closer to "home" [USA].
Experience related below:
JUST TALKED WITH MY OLD CIRCUIT OVERSEER [By Seeker4]
A former CO that served my congregation when I was an elder was visiting the area and looked me up - despite knowing I was no longer a JW. He serves as an elder in a congregation on the other side of the country (US) now, but we were very good friends when he was my CO about a decade ago. Went out of circuit work about five years back.
Thought some might be interested in a few things we talked about in a long, three hour conversation.
He says he's working to overcome a deep and intense anger against the Watchtower Society for the way its misled so many for so long, and that he feels the organization is accountable not only for that, but also for the hundreds of lives damaged and lost due to following WTS policies that have now changed (alternative military service, blood, transplants, dialysis, etc.).
He said he no longer has faith in much of anything that the F&DS prints in the literature. His experiences in the traveling work and with over 50 years as a Witness has convinced him that the Society has very little concern for individual friends, and is mainly focused on keeping itself going, a sentiment that he said was shared by many of the DOs he worked with, including one who told him that "the Mormons treat their members better than we do!"
In recent talks with a couple who were formerly missionaries, and who now serve in a US congregation, the couple told him they feel that the Organization is floundering, that it is essentially a "rudderless ship" without any leadership. He talked freely about the "liberal and conservative" elements at Bethel who are struggling against each other to make some sort of sense about where the WTS is headed, and how it will handle the mess it's in. This is from a Brother with lots of organizational responsibility as an elder and mucho connections among the traveling brothers and at Bethel.
Though my views would be considered apostate by a lot of JWs, he essentially agreed with me about the problems in the Organization that drove me away, and went on to assure me that many, many elders he's been able to talk with recently in his area and in mine, have feelings not that far from my own, including brothers who are in the traveling work. He said he has consistently been cautioned by traveling brothers in recent years to be careful about anything he writes to the Society, as the WTS is, in his words, "terribly afraid of apostates."
Quality of meetings and assemblies have really fallen off, he said, with brothers just dryly repeating the same old cliches, fearing to vary from WTS manuscripts and outlines, and fearing to say anything that could begin to be viewed as controversial. He made the comment that "no one" in the congregations any longer believes that the End Is Near, noting that the Society's attempt to boost field service by lowering pioneer hours was an abject failure. The friends have lost any sense of urgency in the work. He said that at a meeting of traveling brothers with reps from the Gov. Body in the mid-90s, the brothers were deeply concerned then about the drop off in meeting attendance, field service, etc. He said the Bethel bros. told them at the time that meeting attendance nationally was running at about 60%! (Can you imagine what it is now?) The brothers wanted the COs to tell them what was happening among the friends and what they should do, but when some COs suggested the need to drop the idea of handing in time, back off from making rules in areas not specifically covered by Scriptures, emphasizing Scriptural principles instead of making rules, coming clean on mistakes and screwups, etc., the Society ignored them. It was felt that any loosening of control by the WTS would result in many Friends leaving, or the WTS itself losing credibility. The comment was made that if the Society stopped having the friends hand in time, at least half would no longer go out. My CO friend said that the WTS is so used to using coercive measures like handing in time, talks about the need to do more, etc. etc., that they cannot see another way of operating. He says he thinks the Society will soon drop the handing in time requirement and make other changes, and that it will mean literally millions will leave the Organization, but they will have to do it or die out. I told him I didn't think the Society would ever reform, and he told me that other elders he had recently talked with told him the same thing. I think he hopes it can, or feels that it has to in order to survive.
Then he mentioned a couple of really interesting things. He said that if it weren't for the growth among the Spanish speaking, the work would essentially be dead in certain parts of this country. He said an English congregation in his area had just been disbanded because there were no longer enough going to the meetings to support it. It was combined with another English congregation nearby. He said he doubted if the growth among the Spanish in this country and others, and the growth in the third world, would continue for much longer as the people in these lands gained greater self-sufficiency and intellectual freedom and moved away from the idea of needing to be told what to do.
Then he dropped this bomb. He said that he felt the problems in the WTS had reached "critical mass" and something dramatic would have to be done by the WTS very soon in order to salvage the organization. Either way, he said, he felt we would soon see a mass exodus of literally millions of Witnesses, because under the present course, the Society has been totally unable to maintain any sense of urgency in the preaching work, and has failed to focus the friends on the Bible principles and Christlike way of life that would give them the foundation to want to remain an active Witness.
Until the last few months, I had felt that it would be years before things came to a head with the WTS. But in the past few weeks I've had conversations with several active Witnesses, all of whom have expressed feelings similar to this former CO. Somehow I think that the jump into the new century has also created a psychological shift among many Witnesses, and more and more active Witnesses, including elders and others in responsibility, are becoming less and less afraid to talk about what they see as serious organizational problems that are just getting worse.
It was strange to hear this brother, an active elder with years of full-time service under his belt and a lifetime as a Witness, saying essentially the same things I'm hearing here on H2O. He said he felt there was a "flood" of people leaving the WTS for essentially the same reasons I had, and that this would force some sort of changes and reform. Anyone else getting any of these same vibes? I know reform is a lot to ask, but anyone else hearing about this wave of discontent in the Organization from people in the know? Frankly, I'm surprised - I didn't expect this much this soon.
By Seeker4
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bjc2read
Also this experience, by "Maximus" [deceased, retired District Overseer, who used to post on JW.Com.]
"Observer17" relates:
I found this quote from "Maximus," taken from this link:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/6496/76321/post.ashx#76321 [old JW.Com Board]
...There are some extremely disgruntled exCO-DOs out there (and more than a few active ones) who will tell intimates how they feel but who must play the game for the locals.
Maximus
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steve2
He said, they said, he said, they said.....
Hardly evidence, but makes interesting speculation.
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Apognophos
Hmm, that's interesting, thanks for posting it. I do find it very surprising to think that many at the top might feel this way. My personal feeling is that the Society is not in danger of a mass exodus at all, but that is assuming that the ones at the top continue to "drive the bus". The rank and file JWs are mostly docile passengers on the bus, and all the bus needs to do is drive in a straight line and they will stay in their seats. But if enough people at the top stop wanting to drive ths bus... that could make a big difference.
The COs/DOs are the lifeline between the HQ and the rank and file because they maintain law and order. It's not just that they can replace elder bodies when they go off the rails (which I have heard happens sometimes), but that they are a necessary level of management in the "company", in terms of keeping elders motivated and working for the org.
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bjc2read
Hi Apognophos,
But what if COs & DOs began to make these type of "damaging" statements/comments from the platform, publicly?
Wouldn't the Governing Body be at least, "concerned" about such statements being made by leading men, trusted men [like DOs & COs] in the JW Organization?
Here is the statement in question:
See Link to related thread:
I just received this reply from "Kneehighmiah"
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Hi "Kneehighmiah":
You said:
It was the public address about Jehovah rocking the nations. He said that he could not back up or explain the dates 1914 or 1919 but if they had questions ask their teacher...
What?!?
Are you kidding me?
He [District Overseer at the Assembly] actually said from the platform publicly,
"...he could not back up or explain the dates of 1914 or 1919, but if they had questions ask their teacher."
That's nothing short of incredible!!!
Wow!
Thanks, for relating that huge bit of news from the assembly.
End of observation posted.
The COs/DOs are the lifeline between the HQ and the rank and file because they maintain law and order. It's not just that they can replace elder bodies when they go off the rails (which I have heard happens sometimes), but that they are a necessary level of management in the "company", in terms of keeping elders motivated and working for the org.
Its kind of like you said above, COs & DOs are very important to keeping control of the JW Organization, right?
bjc