Marriage Consummation - emailed question has me stumped

by jwfacts 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    For this type of discussion, one must keep customs, laws of man and laws of God in mind when addressing these issues.

    Why was marriage instituted? Because it's not good for man to be alone. Also, the law of God to Adam was to go forth, multiply and replenish the earth. Legality in moral issues means very little since adultery, fornication, homosexuality and oral sex are all legal, just as the most horrible types of abortion is legal. But the moral aspects of each of these have been hotly debated in our society.

    Going to the New Testament, one reads the words of Jesus on the matter:

    One Bible scholar put it this way:

    Emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, financially, and in every other way, the couple is to become one. Even as one part of the body cares for the other body parts (the stomach digests food for the body, the brain directs the body for the good of the whole, the hands work for the sake of the body, etc.), so each partner in the marriage is to care for the other. Each partner is no longer to see money earned as “my” money; but rather as “our” money. Ephesians 5:22-33 and Proverbs 31:10-31 give the application of this “oneness” to the role of the husband and to the wife, respectively.

    Physically, they become one flesh, and the result of that one flesh is found in the children that their union produces; these children now possess a special genetic makeup, specific to their union. Even in the sexual aspect of their relationship, a husband and wife are not to consider their bodies as their own but as belonging to their partner (1 Corinthians 7:3-5). Nor are they to focus on their own pleasure but rather the giving of pleasure to their spouse.

    Also:

    As recorded in Genesis chapter 2, God created Adam first, and then Eve. God Himself brought Eve to Adam. God Himself ordained that they would be joined together in holy matrimony. He said that the two of them would become one flesh. This is a picture of marital intimacy—the act of love that is never to involve anyone else. To “cleave” means “to adhere to, stick to, or join with.” It is a unique joining of two people into one entity. It means we do not quit when things are not going right. It includes talking things out, praying things through, being patient as you trust God to work in both of your hearts, being willing to admit when you are wrong and asking forgiveness, and seeking God's counsel regularly in His Word.

    The question now arises, how can a couple achieve all of this when one withholds himself or herself from a spouse? Isn’t it also written, “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord”?

    These are arguably not one of the most popular passages in the scriptures, but Paul mentions it twice. But Peter also said, “Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto your elders. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.”

    By submitting to the needs of others, we serve others and put their needs above our own. And if we do that for one another, doesn’t it stand to reason that we would do that with our spouses?

    No one mentioned why this woman would want no sexual relations, but it could stem from a fear of pregnancy or a perceived stigma caused by overzealous parents and teachers who have convinced her that sex is somehow wrong. Some women aren’t virgins and are afraid they’ll be discovered.

    The ancient Israelites were permitted to put away their women because of their weaknesses and inability to live the gospel. When given the opportunity of seeing God for themselves, they refused and told Moses to receive the word of the Lord and they would comply. Today we also have weaknesses, and the situation being discussed is about one spouse who is refusing to obey the word of God nor submit to her husband. And under these conditions, he has every right to put her away. Also, elders are not judges, nor were they intended to be. Their job is to provide spiritual counsel. One of the greatest gifts of God is that of free agency, and by compelling members to submit to untrained elders is, in my view, irresponsible and leads to gross unhappiness.

    One final thought. Paul, in Ephesians 5, repeatedly mentions something that is vitally significant. And that’s the church.

    Notice that there are seven references in this passage on marriage regarding the church. Now the amazing thing is, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has never claimed, and has gone so far as to deny, that it is a church! That said, why should the Society’s elders have any authority to revoke someone’s baptism by disfellowshiping them? The Israelites had judges appointed them by Moses, and these judges were called and set apart by Moses because he found he couldn’t handle all the cases himself. The bottom line is that in a situation as mentioned by the OP, counseling should be tried first. After that, the issue is whether couples are living the spirit of the counsel first given to Moses, and then by Jesus Christ and his apostles.

    And fer goodness sake, why didn’t the spouse mention her reticence to have sex before her marriage? I have to place some fault on the man, and the couple together, for not discussing things like expectations regarding children and sex in general. Finally, if you've been disciplined by the Society, don't take it too hard. It's not like they're the church of Jesus Christ, right?

    .

    Paralipomenon: More likely, the Elders thought he was trying to play the system and didn't believe him. They are enforcers, even if they believed him, if people thought they could just claim they never had sex and get a free pass on remarriage that would be preferable to the status quo of having an affair to get a divorce.

    The ancient law has always been: In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. If both husband and wife testify to something, it isn’t up to the elders to either believe them or disbelieve them. Unless they are witnesses themselves, or have conflicting witnesses willing to testify, they are compelled by the law to take their words. If they are dishonest, then it’s a matter for God to judge. If one or more of the couple are unwilling to submit to each other’s happiness or fulfillment, then in my view it’s justifiable for the couple to split.

    In the early church, marriage was considered a holy ordinance, and the Eastern Orthodox considered it a sacrament. In fact, they believe that legal marriages done in other churches or by secular authorities end at death. Marriages done in an Eastern Orthodox church, however, will last forever. They point out that Adam and Eve were married by God before the fall and, therefore, death had not come into the world. Thus, God intended for that marriage to last forever. Because of this, it’s more difficult to obtain a divorce than a civil marriage.

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  • RottenRiley
    RottenRiley

    Cold-Steel, deep material! Nice work!

    JWFacts, Nobody in their right mind is going to doubt your email. I swear I know twenty different experiences over the decades where the wives did not put out, the husband was still a virgin after five years! The majority of these situations were sexually-abused victims from family or some other troll. The improper view of sex or distroted view, what was the girl thinking when she got married, he was going to play house and have pajama parties? I know of two brothers now who are in this situation, they are both under 25 years old and feel like they got ripped off! I told them to Divorce and was brought before the Elders!

    I would recommend a annulment, it's happened with elderly couples 70s-80s and 90s who remarried, they ended up being people (JWs) who hate each other after getting married and they go their unhappy ways and nobody ever asked questions.

    JWFacts, these questions only the wise Sword of Solomon (Watchtower) can give a unique answer direct from god. You have me stumped because the Watchtower wrote us telling us, "What God has yoked together let no man tear apart"

    JWFacts, was the act of Celibacy mutually agreed upon? (1 Corinthains 7:5...) or did one partner end up saying "I am not going to have sex with you"? Some victims of abuse get married and then tell their husband (it's 9/10s women I witnessed) how they were abused and "we are not going to have sex because of the pain I went through as a kid"

    @Besty, remember when a man could screw another man in the ass and not get disfellowshiped and a woman could not divorce a man who had Gay Sex with 100,000,000 Hot Men? Watchtower Old Light from 1965-1980? Ass-Sex with men does not give a woman a divorce, I don't understand this Cult!

    This action was dishonesty on the part of the person wanting to get married, any party who deprives a normal biological desire should be divorced if they can't reconcile. Why did they wait so long? What went through each spouses mind? Did you ask what reasonings were given?

  • Julia Orwell
    Julia Orwell

    I know Catholic teaching on this matter is that the marriage can be annulled. No consumation= no marriage = annullment.

    More to the point, why wouldn't his wife sleep with him? That's very strange.

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    I found this quote, in which Watchtower claims it is not necessary for a marriage to be consummated by intercourse. The reasoning makes some broad assumptions about Adam and Eve, but that is the nature of Watchtower doctrine.

    *** w56 9/1 p. 533 par. 22 The Divine Origin of Marriage ***

    22 When Jehovah God brought this perfect woman to the awakened man in Eden and pronounced his blessing upon them and set their joint duties before them their marriage was consummated. It did not require any physical sexual union between them first to consummate their marriage. If that sexual connection were first necessary to make the marriage a real, valid, binding one, then Adam and his woman were never married in Eden. It is first after this couple found themselves outside of Eden some time later that, we read, “now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain.” (Gen. 4:1, NW) Adam and Eve knew that the purpose of the sexual connection was to bring forth children. So in their perfection and with perfect self-control and without shame at their nakedness and without feeling passion at the sight of each other’s unclothed body they refrained from having sexual union and conceiving children while in Eden. Nevertheless, they were fully married and were bound to cleave to each other lovingly in faithfulness. Jehovah God, the divine marriage-maker, had yoked them together. No creature could rightly put them apart.

  • besty
    besty

    somebody should write to Bethel with that *** w56 9/1 p. 533 par. 22 The Divine Origin of Marriage *** and ask if there has been new light since.

  • designs
    designs

    no Musk glands

  • designs
    designs

    A married Pioneeer buddy of mine was paralyzed in an auto accident and had an implant so intercourse could happen.

  • 88JM
    88JM

    Fascinating.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Royalty once had to consummate a marriage in front of the nobles of the court. Bedsheets were kept to prove consummation. Foreign policy was at stake. It sounds as though fraud is involved. This is a strange case. My mom told me there were many marriages that became celibate during Rusell's time. Perhaps even when Rutherford took over. It is hard to know b/c everyone did their own thing.

    It is repulsive to encourage spouses to snitch on each other. I can't think of a worse betrayl. What kind of spouse goes to the elders rather than to a therapist? I find it loathsome when I know a couple and the female spouse tells me all their conflicts. When it gets too intimate details, too much info. Meanwhile, I have to interact with hubby as though I know nothing when all I can think about is the revelations. How do ellders get up and speak in front of these couples? I would be too distracted by the faces in the audience.

    Roman Catholic friends told me how to get rid of marital problems in the NY area. Brooklyn had a very liberal policy towards annulments. No one was denied. There was a $1500. filing fee. Manhattan took a very conservative approach. Annulments were rarely granted. It had to go to the Vatican, which drove the cost up to $20 or $30 thousand. What would happen if you felt moved to make a nice fat contribution during the proceedings? Has anyone tried? People who wanted to remarry in the church just moved to Brooklyn for a while.

  • designs
    designs

    My brother in law, a Catholic, had his first marriage annuled. Paid the fine and became a free man.

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