Can you prove Jesus existed outside of Bible (so called) evidence?

by punkofnice 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • humbled

    Runasfast--You value a free and open(not bought and closed religion) appreciation of Jesus A lot of people hate anything that faintly resembles the crushing religion we escaped.

    So many of us even without scholarly credentials like leolia eventually get to what her studies told her:No proof but a Jesus who was crucified probably happened.

    Rest assured that there are plenty of individuals who don't have to meet HIGH standards of proof of existence for their "lives" to affect people. Robin Hood, Shakespeare,socrates,Homer, etc.--My great-great grandfather Thomas Dolan and Mary Kelly had a past that melted into hundreds of other Dolans and Kellys that left Ireland and melted into the U.S.--they came from obscurity, lived without leaving much proof--Except I am here now--yet only Mary knew if Thomas WAS my grandpa's daddy--o well..still, here I am.

    What do we know for sure? about anything?

    Still, in that ignorance,I choose to do what you seem to do. I follow Jesus' teachings and stay out of church.

  • Badfish

    It all depends on what you consider proof. Can you prove that any historical figure existed? Can you prove that Socrates existed? How? What is the proof?

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    Apples and oranges...

    One answer there was this:


    It’s very simple.

    That Socrates existed is not an extraordinary claim; he is said to have been an excellent teacher and philosopher.

    That somebody named Jesus existed is not an extraordinary claim.

    That he was the son of god, was raised from the dead, and performed miracles – not(sic) that is an extraordinary claim.

    Or, to put it another way, if Socrates did not exist, it’s not a big deal to my worldview. But if Jesus did not exist – or was not a god – it’s a huge deal to the christian worldview.

    So, to summarize:

    Socrates: Ordinary claim, minimal effect on my worldview.

    Jesus: Extraordinary claim, huge effect on the christian worldview.

    That is why they are different.

  • Bugbear

    Did Socrate exist, did Plato exist, did Aristotle exist? These persons existed to their name obviously 300-400 years BC. And thanks to the Arabs we have quite well documented a lot of things that makes it believable, they must have existed. We know of a man that had a wife named Xhantippe, and a son about 5-7 years of age. We know what the name of his friends and that he committed suicide the year 399 bc. By taken poison. This due to a court decision and because he had seduced “the young man”..?. We know the men who wrote about him, Plato and Aristotle.

    The proof of what the old Greek thought and believed is far more documented, then anything written in the NT. When you read these “testaments” it seems like they are all contradiction themselves on numerous of occasions. And this above all they want us to believe in supernatural gifts, like resurrected from death, walking on water, being given birth by a virgin a.s.f. No modern court of law could possibly use these witnesses as proof for the existing of Jesus they are contradicting themselves!

    But there is a far more complicated issue. It is the very basic for Christian tradition.

    According to the bible the very core of Christian believes is that God did gives his beloved son to humans, so that everyone who does believe in him should have eternal life!!

    What did the human race do when (according to the bible) Jesus came to earth on his father’s order?

    We beat him spit on him killed him, and dissimulated him, laugh at him betrayed him and finally we put him on a stake (or a cross).

    And now the human races are saved? All thanks to God´s mercy!

    According to me all this is very illogical! There is no way a father could forgive the “human race” for killing his son. For betraying his son – for spitting on or for making him suffer.

    The very basic for Christianity must be explained in a better way, at least to make me “believer”.

    Until proper explanations is given I simply can’t have any believes in fairy tales, with no proper proves. But I do believe that Socrates existed.


  • ed60

    I don't believe that the Bible is a sound historical document or the word of God. It doesn't put me off reading it though because the affect it's had on humanity has been incredible and varied to say the least.

    With philosophical and religious teachings I believe that the proof of the pudding lies in the eating. Judging such teachings is subjective as we are all the formers of our own opinions which is why I think each of us needs to try things out or at least think them through before deciding on the metits and pitfalls of each belief. The nearer believers get to absolute dogmatic "truth" the scarier and more violent they seem to get.

    That's why I'm against borganized religion. Nobody should have the right to indoctrinate children and gullible or vulnerable adults by using psychological coersion strategies today. Yet it is obvious that some people believe that the teachings of Jesus in the Bible give them a mandate to do just that as well as a yardstick by which to judge (and sometimes beat) others.

    In much the same way some people in the past felt that they were mandated to scare or threaten people with violence (and eternal damnation) to make them at least pay lip service to a new 'Christian' religion.

    What's in my head is not what's in yours. I'm certain of that. I respect that. I wonder, if Jesus had existed would he be pleased with how things have panned out?

  • Fernando
  • Black Man
    Black Man


  • designs

    "and they will go away to eternal punishment" Jesus, Matthew 25:46. Lovely person, truly.....

  • Bugbear

    Black Man!

    Sorry didn´t understand your Bttt?


  • LV101

    besty - Thank you for posting Leolaia's research - when I noticed the title of this post I thought of her work. It's my goal someday to read thru her comments but can't even get past few pages of Cofty's 'pastor'/tsunami thread.

    again - thanks!

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