The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  tec

  Well, here is one more thing for you to consider:

  How do YOU know that God intervening in that tsunami would not have been the cause of anothers' death? Not necessarily from a physical reaction (but possibly)... and not from those who died in the tsunami at some later date who might later kill someone else... but from a human reaction to God having stopped that tsunami? (for whatever reason, use your imagination) Or even from the fear and panic caused by being confronted with the undeniable existence of God... but yet not knowing God, and so fearing Him and being terrified?

  You don't know what the results might be to the opposite of what happens.

  I also thought that was a good example, Pelicanbeach. One other aspect to that story that is food for thought: Lazarus now had to go into hiding because men were trying to kill him, because Christ raised him from the dead. Some people might rather simply wait for the resurrection than face that and worse.

  To others ... assume the worst if you want, any of you who do want. You have the free will to make that assumption.

  But to have the example of being given life to begin with... of being promised eternal life on top of that... and the many examples of Christ healing the sick, feeding the poor, giving his life, bringing people back from the dead all out of love (and Christ is the reflection of His Father)... well, these things ought to give you pause in your condemnation. Because your assumption and condemnation just doesn't make any sense in light of these truths. A monstrous god (as Cofty describes what he does not know) does not give life or attempt to help, guide, serve, heal, save, etc, man, including those who so often reject Him.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  Viviane

  How do YOU know that God intervening in that tsunami would not have been the cause of anothers' death? Not necessarily from a physical reaction (but possibly)... and not from those who died in the tsunami at some later date who might later kill someone else... but from a human reaction to God having stopped that tsunami? (for whatever reason, use your imagination)

  Well, be specific. Are you suggesting that God may have stopped the tsunami and that may have enraged someone so they killed someone else? Or that the tsunami killed someone who was a future mass murderer and the tsunami stopped him? Are you suggesting that your God may not have stopped the death of 200000 to save... some unknown number?

  If so, that's a fascinating theory. Please expound upon how many lives were potentially saved to equal out the 200000 that DID die. I am truly intertested to hear how allowing hundreds of thousands to die in a single event prevented even more deaths.

  Or even from the fear and panic caused by being confronted with the undeniable existence of God... but yet not knowing God, and so fearing Him and being terrified?

  Then you should pray for your god to remain hidden if his presence is so terrifying that it will cause murder, panic, fear and all that goes with it. Truly a monster were he to reveal himself.

  You don't know what the results might be to the opposite of what happens.

  Neither do you. All we CAN know is that hundreds of thousands died and your all-powerful all-knowing god could or wouldn't stop it.

  Lazarus now had to go into hiding because men were trying to kill him, because Christ raised him from the dead. Some people might rather simply wait for the resurrection than face that and worse.

  Lazarus didn't have a choice. Your Jesus took away his free will. Some loving guy, huh?

  But to have the example of being given life to begin with... of being promised eternal life on top of that... and the many examples of Christ healing the sick, feeding the poor, giving his life, bringing people back from the dead all out of love (and Christ is the reflection of His Father)... well, these things ought to give you pause in your condemnation.

  No more so than STORIES of Zeus, Mithra, Zoroaster, Shiva, Ba'al or any other god of that age. You would condemn those as false, please explain why special pleading should work for you and not them? How is your god any different?

  Because your assumption and condemnation just doesn't make any sense in light of these truths.

  Sorry, unless you can explain why your stories are different that other god's stories, they're stories. You have all the work to do to explain why they are different than all the others.

  A monstrous god (as Cofty describes what he does not know) does not give life or attempt to help, guide, serve, heal, save, etc, man, including those who so often reject Him.

  You just said there may be a reason your god did not attempt to help save or guide the tsunami victims and you can't explain why. Sounds like you are describing the monster you claim Cofty does not know. Why, then, do you worship him?
• 

  tec

  You voice seems somehow familiar to me Viviane. If so, welcome BACK. If not... time will tell. Welcome anyway.

  Well, be specific. Are you suggesting that God may have stopped the tsunami and that may have enraged someone so they killed someone else? Or that the tsunami killed someone who was a future mass murderer and the tsunami stopped him? Are you suggesting that your God may not have stopped the death of 200000 to save... some unknown number?

  If so, that's a fascinating theory. Please expound upon how many lives were potentially saved to equal out the 200000 that DID die. I am truly intertested to hear how allowing hundreds of thousands to die in a single event prevented even more deaths.

  I was pretty specific. Perhaps read again.

  May I ask you a question though? What does the numbers have to do with anything? Do you think that the value of life lies in the number of lives saved? If so then ANY action or inaction that causes the LEAST amount of deaths (end justifying the means) would be acceptable to you?

  Then you should pray for your god to remain hidden if his presence is so terrifying that it will cause murder, panic, fear and all that goes with it. Truly a monster were he to reveal himself.

  Those who seek, find.

  Except in a few rare occassions (where people are killing HIS people, that I know of), He does not force Himself upon others. They hear and follow Him (by hearing and following his Son). Or not.

  Neither do you. All we CAN know is that hundreds of thousands died and your all-powerful all-knowing god could or wouldn't stop it.

  Difference is... I am not condemning someone in my ignorance.

  I assume you would want to be given the benefit of the doubt in the absence of knowledge and/or extenuating circumstances? Especially given the examples of your nature from the One you sent to reveal the truth about you? Even just given the example that you gave us all life, and offer the promise of eternal life?

  Lazarus didn't have a choice. Your Jesus took away his free will. Some loving guy, huh?

  Now you're just being silly. Lazarus loved Christ, belonged to Christ, served Christ. All by his own choice. Christ did not even remotely take away the free will of Lazarus.

  No more so than STORIES of Zeus, Mithra, Zoroaster, Shiva, Ba'al or any other god of that age. You would condemn those as false, please explain why special pleading should work for you and not them? How is your god any different?

  This has nothing to do with anything I said, nor does not believing in the existence of something equal condemning that something.

  I don't think atheist condemn God simply by not believing in Him. That makes no sense at all.

  And the rest of your points also have nothing to do with anything I said either... but they do serve to make your voice sound even more like someone else's, at least to me.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  Retrovirus

  Hi Viviane,

  From Cofty's summary post on p20

  I thought a summary might be helpful.

  The question is simple. It isn't an attempt to use suffering to prove there is no god. It isn't even about suffering in general.

  It is about suffering that is not caused by humans and how theism accounts for it.

  So it's not about the details of any person's belief.

  I'd reiterate: a believer in a God or power greater than himself , cannot by definition account for every action or non action of that being. Being unable to do so does NOT make the believer intellectually dishonest; quite the opposite.

  Retro
• 

  Viviane

  I'd reiterate: a believer in a God or power greater than himself , cannot by definition account for every action or non action of that being. Being unable to do so does NOT make the believer intellectually dishonest; quite the opposite.

  Agreed, presuming that believer were willing to admit that they don't know what their god does or doesn't do and why. Most are quite dogmatic about knowing that, so they don't get the luxury of a "get out jail free" card.

  Tammy:

  I don't know why you think I sound familiar. Perhaps because it sounds like the voice of reason you have rejected from so many?

  In any event, I have absolutely no interest in engaging in debate with you since you don't actually debate, you just ask for special pleading, prostelytize your version of Jesus and move the goalposts. I am on a journey to learn all I can and I have recently escaped religious leaders and those claiming to know the truth, perhaps I simply have a sore spot for those claiming to have the truth now, this time, for real, and yet still saying things obviously wrong.

  Who know, though. Maybe your version of Jesus will convince me he is real. Give it a shot.
• 

  Retrovirus

  Welcome, Vivane, hadn't relised you were a newbie!

  Agreed, presuming that believer were willing to admit that they don't know what their god does or doesn't do and why. Most are quite dogmatic about knowing that, so they don't get the luxury of a "get out jail free" card

  Especially true of jws, with that sort of kindly, condescending smile. They have all the answers. . .but they might be different next week

  I'm more familiar with more inclusive religions.

  cheers, Retro
• 

  Miss.Fit

  Would "God is a free agent and can choose not to" be # 17?

  also what about the " we are being tested" (Job) argument, would that be # 18?

  I am enjoying this thread. It has really made me think.

  Adam needs to be more patient and less condescending. We are all on different levels here. I didn't even know what a fallacy was until I came to this forum. Sometimes we don't know what we don't know. I always appreciate the links and the reading suggestions.

  Miss Fit.
• 

  KateWild

  Adam needs to be more patient and less condescending.-missfit

  LOL! I have learned to take him with a pinch of salt an call him on his condecending comments, he is here to help, on my personal threads he has been supportive and caring.

  Love Kate xx
• 

  cofty

  How do YOU know that God intervening in that tsunami would not have been the cause of anothers' death?... from a human reaction to God having stopped that tsunami? - Tammy

  Without any doubt the most ridiculous suggestion in 23 pages.

  An all-knowing god would be aware on the earthquake under the Indian Ocean before it happened and could have quelled the wave at its source without any human ever being aware. Not in order to impose his presence any anybody but purely as an act of love. That's what I would have done which makes me far more moral than your god.
• 

  cofty

  I'd reiterate: a believer in a God or power greater than himself , cannot by definition account for every action or non action of that being. Being unable to do so does NOT make the believer intellectually dishonest; quite the opposite. - Retro

  If you emphasise the word EVERY then I agree with you.

  I would stand by my accusation that blithely dismissing the pointless death of a quarter of a million innocent people with the excuse "its a mystery", is intellectual dishonesty.