The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

  • cofty

    If we don't believe in life after death and the world to come, then I dont know what explanation we would be willing to accept - Kassad

    Any explanation that doesn't contradict other things that theists also preach.

    My point is not that god doesn't exist or that if he does he must end all suffering. My point - and I would go as far as to claim we have proven it here - is that the christian theism model of god is impossible. He does not; cannot exist. Your beliefs are self-contradictory.

    A god who is omnipotent and loving cannot be reconciled with the events of 26th December 2004 or with any other similar natural disaster. The sort of god that millions of christians worship is a delusion.

    In your answer you have offered two explanations, both of which have been answered at length above.

    1. You suggest that it doesn't matter that god drowned a quarter of million people and devasted the lives of millions more because he will give them nice things later. Please think about what you are saying here.

    You still have all your work to do to explain how the immense pain and suffering casued by the tsunami can be reconciled with a god of love. By talking about a future paradise you are simply avoiding the question. Why did god kill all those people and create millions of orphans and widows? Your model of god behaves like a very wealthy man who destroys other people's lives, and then thinks he can make it all better by throwing his money around.

    2. You think you can excuse god's mass murder because he "took our flesh and suffered with us."

    Psac said something similar but refused to explain what he meant. What is the connection between Jesus getting himself crucified and the tsunami? How is it any different from a young man who slits his wrists to prove his love for the object of his attraction? If suffering for somebody is going to mean anything then it has to be suffering instead of them. Are you really suggesting that Jesus' death makes it ok for him to kill and maim others? Your problem is even greater than that though. You have to show that the tsunami was an act of perfect godly love. You have not even begun to address the question.

    Of course one has to have faith to believe this, and by faith I mean, one needs to be a fool.

    I agree.

  • new hope and happiness
    new hope and happiness

    Thank you for the reply cofty, you ask " If i am missing something share it" And to do so i hope what i write is not off topic.If it is i apologise. All i can share is i have changed quite a bit since my business partner and his wife plus the parents of 3 teenage girls died on that day. I hope am no longer as conceoted, and i hope more humble. I have learnt that money is necessary in life but only when one is not a slave to it ( so i still value some wisdom i llearnt from the bible. ) What else can i tell you? I think the most important thing i have learnt is not to compromisr people by telling them " MY" truth to their faces. Not that i put on a mask of politeness if such a topic is discussed. In short i have learnt from that day added with having left the witnesses and finally my beliffe in God that i do not have to justify my athisam to anyone, and nor does anyone need justify there faith to me. Try to understand how i would feel telling someone there faith is wrong. That is a subject i avoid with disgust,. Yet this thread is about where was God on that day.Well If i were on a jury and had to answer i would deliver a verdict that God is " Not Guilty" and nor is he responsible for the events on december 27th. But that is because i do not believe in God, so how can i convict something that doesn't exist to me? But for those that believe in the Gog of thesim, what spech can they give over the graves of those that died? Whom can they held responsible? Maybe for me they chase an ideal and a strong faith, but i still respect there reason even if if the logic is something i do not comprehend. So i have enjoyed reading this thread, and on many nights slept at night trying to understand the different points of view, I also in truth think those that believe in God have shown a moral conviction to reply and i do not criticize them for that. Now i dont know if i should cross out what i wrote, but i think its on topic and will post it.

  • Heaven

    1. You suggest that it doesn't matter that god drowned a quarter of million people and devasted the lives of millions more because he will give them nice things later. Please think about what you are saying here.

    2. You think you can excuse god's mass murder because he "took our flesh and suffered with us."

    Both of these answers nullify the supposed ransom sacrifice that Jesus paid.

    When a ransom is paid, the prisoners are to be released. We have not been released therefore the ransom is invalid.

  • new hope and happiness
    new hope and happiness

    When i was a Christian i belived in God. I was often furious with him, telling him that he didn't understand the burden of MY problems. Of couse i missed the bigger picture of suffering in the world. But this relationship with God allowed me to release the burden in my life and gave me peace.

    When i realized that this God was not real i left him with a broken spirit, as this did not give me peace of mind.

    Now having lost my faith in God, i still do not have peace of mind. This sounds crazy but now having lost faith in God i feel bad eating animals. If i hadn't lost my faith in God i would not have this dilemma. The image of animals and that they have feelings has effected me. I dont want to eat them.

    The above point i submit to the thread because a God empowered to hadle all things, allowed humuns to die and thats ok they have redemtion...but what about the animals that perished that day?

    Ok live animals go through sawmills and are killed everyday for our consumption. Animals and humun lifes are replacable,God has a point to proove.How many have perished man and animal since that tragic day on december 27th? Does the God of theism feel sorry for each and evey death?

    No one can answer that question.

    But my question is. Is God such an excellent cratsman, that all death is part of a divine Purpose? And each death the only way God can complete his plan of love?

  • Heaven

    new hope.... without death there would be no life.

    You say you feel bad eating animals. Other species do not feel bad. A lion, tiger, cheetah, hawk, osprey, spider, ant all eat meat. What if you found out plants had feelings too? Then what would you eat?

    In order for everything in this world to survive, there must be food. Without soil, there would be no food. In order to have soil, living things must die. In order to feed the living, something must die.

    Humans are not separate from the natural world - we are a part of it. And so, our dying feeds the living. This is the natural order on this planet.

  • new hope and happiness
    new hope and happiness

    Thanks Heaven for the reply.

    I did say i feel bad eating animals. And you correct that " other spicies do not feel bad .... a lion a tiger ect......." This is a seperate question which you answered and i agree " we are part of it"

    But with this thread i have often felt my thoughts have been part quoted.And i have felt not doing justice to my complete point...i comfort myself in the realisation most people skip my contribution anyway.

  • new hope and happiness
    new hope and happiness

    Heaven: I think you answerd my point just fine...but your answer in my thinking is quite tragic. Now if i felt i received an answer about how the events of december 27 could be justified, i would be punching the air in a state of euphoria. ( sorry about the word euphoria, but i get so fed up with having my spelling attacked on this i can spell euphoria, i am accepted)

  • humbled

    New Hope,

    I am following your fair and melancholy (does that meet with your euphoria?) reflections on the life, suffering and death of all creatures.It is a pertinent branch of this conversation that would be a shame to lose it in a separate thread.

    It is my own observation of the animal world in my own life that there is one thing and only one thing to distinguish me as I kill a chicken to eat it and a dog who savages it and perhaps will eat it. It is this: I care how the chicken feels.

    Yes, every moment of its life I have been happy for the chicken that it enjoys its life.

    From your posts I trust you will not find me disgusting for regarding myself and the dog as different cases.

    (And, frankly, I wish that there were a god that were more distinct from the dog than he has shown himself to be. Which perhaps is a thought I need to examine a little more...)

    But here is the case for me:

    I have seen so much the suffering of animals. When I first came to live with my husband on his farm in the Ozark mountains I could not bear the ways that pain and death overtook creatures in the barnyard and woodland. A stray dog tore through a nest of kittens, a hog waiting for his feed reached sideways to a rooster and munched off shoulder and breast of the bird whose grieving cries were hushed when the hog swallowed his first bite and then ate the rooster's head off. I heard the strange cries a frog makes as it commences its one-way trip into a blacksnake's belly. The plaintive shriek of a young rabbit when the farm dog lays tender flesh bare with a flick of her teeth. Not to mention the torments of innumerable mice and baby birds for the amusement of generations of barn cats. and horrors more than these....

    Jesus quoted "Ye are gods..." and yes, there I am. I rule the world of animals around me if, in a haphazard way, with something like consistency. Yes, I kill some.Yet I do care how they feel. I have killed to end pain. And all thee while, within the limits available to me, I try for them to have a good life. And for those destined to feed the family, I go to lengths to provide a sense of security for them. They trust me to look after them--truly. And as the moment arrives for my killing them, for them I take care that they not feel the horror of betrayal, if it is betrayal to be locked in this cycle of life and death with them. Because finally, I will supply their end that will certainly come one way or another--as Heaven above said-- does inevidibly come to every life. But I, I make that end swift and painless.

    So that is my case--The dog does not do the same for a chicken. And sadly, he cannot gainsay me.

    Obviously it is only fair to say on the dog's behalf that he doesn't have the same resources as I do-- even if he had a disposition toward the chicken as kindly as my own.

    But God doesn't have the dog's excuse, does He?


    I eat very little meat as the years have gone on. I cannot eat commercial pork because hogs in this country are now raised in such mental suffering that I cannot enjoy their delicious meat as I did formerly.

    And I am far from a saint. My failures depress me--but it has served this: to make me all the more suspicious of claims that an all-powerfull all-loving God who supplies no evidence of a concern equal to my own.

    Take care, and I am certain that there are many others who appreciate your thoughts in this thread. No wories abot yur spellig--


  • new hope and happiness
    new hope and happiness

    Thanks for the reply to me Humbled. I would answer more fully but i am worried it would digress from Coftys topic.

    Anyway i humbly appreciated your thoughts.

  • cofty

    Try to understand how i would feel telling someone there faith is wrong. That is a subject i avoid with disgust,

    That is where we disagree. I think the fallacy of theism needs to be exposed without mercy.

    Important ideas that people organise their lives around should be scrutinised. If they can pass they pass the test of reason and evidence they have nothing to fear.

    If they can't, they don't deserve our respect.

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