I think my faith might be returning. Feeling very confused.

by jambon1 95 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  adamah

  BOTR said- Spirituality is a very personal matter.

  Yes, it is "personal". Now, why do you feel you have the right to publicly share your faith and not expect your beliefs to be challenged, as if you're immune from needing to explain the basis for your faith when you share it in public to others?

  You know the answer: you cannot defend it. It's completely irrational, and you'd only be attempting to defend a loser of a case if you tried.

  BOTR said- No one should have to justify their journey to anyone else.

  No one should have to share their faith in public, either, but wait: that's not actually true, is it? Isn't explaining one's faith to others a MANDATE for Xians? "Go therefore and make disciplines", etc? "Let your light shine"? "Faith without works is dead"?

  BOTR said- The day we do so is the day we become active Witnessses again.

  See, you and the others here publicly "professing your faith in Jesus" haven't left the ugly JW proselytizing habit behind: you've only somewhat changed the lyrics, but the song remains the same.

  Hence you join the ranks of other Xian warriors, some of whom you have no problem challenging in public (TEC, even AGuest). Is that why TECs preaching seems to bother you so much, gets under your skin? Too close for comfort?

  BOTR said- You are very rude to me. I will not tolerate it.....Your rants detract from your championship of atheism and whatever else.

  Relax, BOTR: I'm as calm as anything here, but you're seemingly blowing the gasket here, calling me "rude".

  As a Xian, aren't you and the rest of believers supposed to be demonstrating "the fruitages of the spirit" (love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control)? How does aggressively telling me off and declaring me "rude" demonstrate YOUR commitment to Galatians 5:22?

  What happened to "turn the other cheek"?

  In fact, TEC (as illogical as she may be at times), deserves credit for at least "walking the walk" so as not to be a hypocritical Xian; in fact, you and others who claim to be Xians could learn something on that topic from TEC.

  Some people feel they have the right to be as contradictory as they want to be AND demand they be respected for it or else they throw a hissy fit, as if they have some God-given right to publicly spew their goofy ideas, but expect everyone else to take it easy on them as if they know their ideas don't withstand the slightest bit of challenge, fading when challenged slightly as if their beliefs are some hot-house flower left outside overnight.

  If you and any others cannot contain your overwhelming urges to share your faith publicly with others, then don't be surprised when someone points out your loose grasp of reality and reckless disregard for the TRUTH; my "rants" (as you call them) are incredibly more researched than your barely-coherent stream-of-consciousness postings filled with self-doubts, eg:

  BOTR said- Do I stand up to my family whom I love and respect and cave in to win approval from some anonymous poster on the Internet? It is not logical.

  No, it's not. Were you trying to make a point?

  Not that it matters, but you'd expect someone trained as a lawyer would have more respect for evidence, but I know that lawyers don't always value evidence (esp if it's inculpatory evidence that only incriminates their client AND themselves!), which is why lawyers rely on the power of emotional persuasion when presenting cases to a jury, just like preachers do, exc.

  Kate said- I have many times you are just behaving incredulously, you don't want to understand about organic chemistry. That's okay but is proves you are wrong about the probability God does not exist, it's more proabable he Created the universe.

  BTW, I'm still waiting for you to 'connect the dots' between o-chem and proof of God (since I have taken o-chem, but then I was somewhat at a disadvantage, eg since I didn't want to see God's fingerprints in statistical distribution of enantiomers. I also went on to take upper-division biochem courses which I'm guessing you likely never took, since you were a general chemistry major, and not a biology major. You DID earn an undergrad degree in chem, right)?

  So bring it on, and lay the evidence on me, Kate (but perhaps you should start a new thread).

  Adam
• 

  Violia

  Adam , the problem here is simple. Folks who believe in a Creator etc, can't even talk among themselves without being called delusional and ignorant. If the atheists on the board would play among themselves it would be more polite. If I want to hear an opposing view point there are many atheist threads I can read and do BTW.

  So bring it on, and lay the evidence on me

  No one has to, Adam. Maybe take a dump in an atheist thread- and I say this with as much agape I can muster.
• 

  adamah

  Lisa Rose said-

  You do not believe in Jesus or God, so what difference does it make to you how others interpret the scriptures or what they believe God wants? It's hilarious you think your understanding of scripture is the only correct one, or even that by claiming to be Christian they need to closely adhere to the bible. I don't think you get a vote on that one.

  Hate to break the news to you, but many of the widely-respected Bible scholars and theologians within academic circles are atheists, and have the academic and intellectual integrity to speak out on "The Truth About The Bible" (TTATB). Many other scholars remain mute on their personal beliefs (or claim to be deists), but manage to avoid allowing their personal beliefs in Gods to color their professional interpretations when considering the original cultural context and academic issues at plays.

  We're LONG past the era of William Albright school of thinking in the 1940's, with Bible-believing archaeologists who were said to "have one hand on the shovel, and the other on the Bible" as they sought out archaeological evidence that would prove the Bible and God. Instead, their plans back-fired, as the uncovered archaeological evidence disproves the historicity of most of what is found in the Bible such that anyone who believes today that eg the exodus is a historical event is automatically dismissed as a crank who's denying the overwhelming evidence and consensus opinion.

  Are you familar with the many names in the field of Bible scholarship and/or archaeology? If not, you need to read some Bill Devers, Israel Finkelstein, Bart Ehrman, Francesca Stavrakopoulou, and others, since the evidence points to the Bible (Old Testament and New), being the work of clever uninspired men, where the reality of the Bible is far more fascinating than the stories contained inside.

  Google "atheist Bible scholars" (or archaeologists) sometime, and you'll stuff like this:

  http://atheist-seeker.blogspot.com/2005/07/secret-of-bible-scholars_07.html

  The Secret of the Bible Scholars

  The Bible scholars have a secret. A secret that they cannot afford to reveal.
  
  What many "scholars" are telling the public is not exactly what they believe. They know that the "Jesus", as we know and understand him today, was nothing special but rather, a mere product of the Greco-Roman culture - a hellenization. They also know that the core doctrines and theology of the Christian religion was simply a fusion of hellenistic ideas and ancient mediterrenean culture, was a product of its time, and was no different from other competing religions of that time. These "scholars" also know that modern-day Christians are following a set of books believed to be the "Word of God" where 80% of which we have no idea who wrote. They know for a fact that Moses has nothing to do with the Pentateuch. It is also known to these "scholars" that none of the Gospels were written by the apostles nor by an eyewitness of the account written on them. And yet we have been fed up with the "fact" that the authors of the Bible had been ascertained. These are just few of what they truly know.
  
  This secret must not come out. And you will understand why. A former Christian theologian turned Deist in the Raving Atheist Forum has this to say:

  "VERY few, if any, of these scholars would or could admit error. It would simply destroy them, their careers and possibly their families.
  
  Mike, when I was an intern youth minister, our head minister confessed to me this: "Jon, if I taught what I really know to be the truth, they'd fire me, and I have a family to support." No kidding. Now, Johnny was NOT an unethical man...merely one who skirted the critical issues in favor of sending his kids to college. This is not cynicism, this is reality. Even the unmarried students have built their 'very existence' off of the truths of the Bible. Think about how difficult it would be to sign that all away...to ADMIT you were wrong for 10, 20, 50 years.
  
  I submit that very few men or women could do this, and THAT prevents the most brilliant of the lot from seeing what's right in front of them. I was able to do it, but even for a rouge, it was incredibly difficult. Just think about it."

  Just look at what happen to former New Testament Bible scholar professor Gerd Lüdemann after publicly declaring his unbelief. He remarked, "People know Christianity is not true, but they won’t address it publicly". Even after attempts for appeal to reconsider, he was expelled from the theological faculty of Gottingen University. Aside from being a noted author in Europe, he used to teach the New Testament in a school in Germany that trains ministers. 1
  
  There are others who bravely revealed this "secret". Some, after publicly declaring their unbelief, decided to walk away from Christianity (Bible Scholars Robert M. Price and G.A Wells first comes to mind). Others remained but with a more liberal outlook on Christianity (Bishop John Shelby Spong, Burton Mack, Raymond Brown etc.). Others are still in the closet but, nonetheless, are brave enough to acknowledge the fact that Christianity is a lie. Personally, I cannot blame them for remaining in the shadows. Is truth always more important than happiness?
  
  Although there are other people who already came out, it is unfortunate that their information is not widely accessible to the public knowledge. Aside from the fact that this "liberal" scholarship is covered and buried deep within the sands of dishonest Christian scholarship, it is a sad fact that the complex nature of modern biblical scholarship does not penetrate popular culture. It takes much effort to understand even just the basic discipline of archeology, historical criticism, and modern biblical scholarship. Not really something an average person would care give attention to study and understand. "He has better things to do than waste his time."
  
  As the POCM website says, "Are there real scholars who see Pagan syncretism in Christianity? Yes there are. But you don't hear about their studies in day to day popular culture. NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN doesn't care."

  Add Fox News to the list, since they have Megan Fox saying nonsense on air, most recently saying that everyone knows that both Santa Claus and Jesus are WHITE (and apparently a teacher parroted the claim to a black student the next day, and was placed on paid leave):

  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/17/teacher-who-said-santa-is-white-placed-on-paid-leave/
• 

  Violia

  Adam

  you are high jacking this thread. Perhaps take that last post and start another thread explaining why all believers are ignorant and decisional.
• 

  LisaRose

  Adamah, get over yourself.
• 

  adamah

  Adam said to Kate: So bring it on, and lay the evidence on me

  Violia said- No one has to, Adam. Maybe take a dump in an atheist thread- and I say this with as much agape I can muster.

  Violia, Kate has repeatedly made some silly claim about o-chem proving God's existence, and I asked her to back up the claim and explain it (since someone else who doesn't know what she's talking about likely is going to simply repeat it, based on her claim of possessing some expertise in the subject area).

  Violia, do you understand the concept of 'burden of proof', and who bears it when making an assertion?

  Or let me guess: you probably just want to believe what you WANT to believe, and no one else can tell you otherwise; you don't want to bother with learning all that nonsense like commonly-accepted conventions of the rules of proof, examining evidence, etc?

  Heck, weren't you just rejoicing above about how you claim to possess critical-thinking skills, since you're now an ex-JW?

  Viola said- you are high jacking this thread.

  The topic is called "I think my faith is returning", and the OP posted today how she's losing her faith again.

  Granted, you may not LIKE what I'm saying, but that's another matter entirely from claiming I'm going OT (hijacking), since it's uncomfortably ON-TOPIC of the lack of evidence to justify one's beliefs, which is EXACTLY WHEN faith is required.

  Viola said- Perhaps take that last post and start another thread explaining why all believers are ignorant and decisional.

  Don't put words in my mouth, please: I never said that believers ARE ignorant, so you're simply creating a volatile (straw-man) claim as if it's some sort of a defense.

  I've always said believers feel the need to defend faith based primarily on emotional reasons, not rational ones, since those who are more intelligent show a much greater capability for creating tons of post-hoc rationalizations, inventing all kinds of excuses for WHY their beliefs are not irrational (which is not a synonym for ignorant, BTW, if you even care about such important semantic differences).

  The only time intelligence comes into play is when someone possibly allow their emotional blinders to remain on, lead to a willful ignorance and conscious denial of the facts.

  Adam
• 

  Band on the Run

  He would lecture me on Bible scholarship! We don't have to submit to his ignorant trouncings. Adam is not a typical atheist. He must impose HIS views on others. I can just picture Kruschev picking up and pounding his shoe in the General Assembly chamber. He is a strong man bully. No one here needs this on this forum.

  I have never argued against evolution. He also has to make crap comments about lawyers. Wow - is that cool or not? I don't know where he came from. In all my years here no one has addressed me in such a manner. Believers are not stupid. We are not illogical. He doesn't even know the contours of my beliefs. It does not matter. I am painted with the same brush as a fundamentalist.

  No other atheist has ever acted in this manner. Well, I moved recently but I am going to brush off my progressive Christianity books and post some content. Perhaps C.S. Lewis would suffice.

  He can't live without an argument. If anything he is even worse than Shelby. What is precious to me here is camraderie with other former Witnesses. Like most modern Christians, I don't have a set of dogma or doctrines. I do not believe the Bible is inerrant. Also, I freely acknowledge that there may be many paths to whatever God is. My views shift. It took me a long while after the Witnesses to realize that I did not have to have well-defined beliefs. Community attracts me to church. Churches provide social structure. The ones I like have strong lay ministries for the poor. All right. I love professional choirs (tho there are some great regular choirs) and real organs. This does not make me an idiot.

  One would think that he was the only one who ever read a book or journal article. Ahhhhh- you can take the beliefs out of the Witness but not the strong arm tactics. Well, one poster does not make a war. He has a poor turn for atheism. A very bad turn. Why is it so personal and vindictive? There is a story there.

  Do we come here for stress? I don't think so. There can be no discussion when basic rules and manners are not followed. Perhaps the board has changed recently. I am not interested in the science threads so I don't read them.
• 

  LisaRose

  Yes, he is giving Athiesm a bad name. If a Christian told him what him what he ought to believe as an Athiest, he wouldn't stand for it. But he tells Christians what they should believe, based on his superior knowledge, and throwing in the views of well known Christian scholars, as if that give his arguments added authority.

  Adamah, you are a bully.
• 

  mamochan13

  I'm going to ignore the hijacking and the arguing and get back to the original post.

  Jambon - you remind me of my eldest daughter. I raised her as a JW until she was a teenager, and although she left the religion at the same time I did, she has really struggled with questions of faith. She has tried to expose her daughter to a religion that teaches god. She tried to go back to meetings for a while with a guy who became her (now ex) husband. Got a rude awakening when the elders knocked on her door wanting an accounting. So she's torn. She wants to believe in something, hates the JW crap, but doesn't really know where to go.

  I'm no help to her because I'm atheist. I get heebie-jeebies when I hear people who have left JW and embraced Jesus as their personal saviour. It feels really strange to me because I can't imagine how anyone would want to stick with that kind of stuff once you see the light. At the same time, I respect everyone's right to hold a personal belief in whatever turns their crank.

  You have to do what feels right to you. But I would still caution not going too far in any one direction until you've really sorted out the destructive JW cult mentality. JWism prevents you from looking critically at anything. You can't question. You can't explore. So if you can break free from that, explore, indulge, and find a new source of belief - then that's the right path for you. No matter what anyone else (here) says.
• 

  3rdgen

  Adamah said "as a Xian aren't you and the rest of the believers supposed to be displaying the "FRUTAGES of the spirit"? (capitalization mine) I am relatively new in my exit and my beliefs are still evolving as I gradually learn and grow, but I do know that the word frutage is PLURAL for fruit. There is no such word as frutages. That is like saying fruitses. Love, joy, peace, etc. are the "frutage of the spirit" OR the fruits of the spirit. Sorry for going off topic but for a person as prone to flaunt his higher education and thinking ability I would simply point out a gramatical error that was a pet peeve of mine when I heard it at the KH.